Uranium - 235

Shadowrun's combat rules were the best.

Going back to boring-ass swords and spells was nearly impossible after a dramatic and flashy escape from an Aztalan trap that finally lets that damn Troll use that guided missile launcher he picked up somewhere.

The one thing I despised about Shadowrun was just how ridiculously easy it was to make a twink character. Twinking in most games involves a certain intimate knowledge of the rules. In Shadowrun, certain bioware / cyberware were just plain ridiculous (ie: mnemonic enhancers - getting an Int of 8 right off the bat with a task pool = failboat)

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TheFeniX

I believe that's one of the reasons FASA ditched the Task Pool in SR3. Further, I always checked my characters sheets over for discrepancies. You'd be surprised how many made the "honest mistake" of going over their nuyen budget on cyberware, essense/body index, or miscalculate some character stats and skills. They would also ignore Availability codes, even though starting characters weren't able to obtain items with a value over 8 (I believe). Imagine one guy trying to swing a Tactical Computer.... (availability 24).

I have the book, but for some reason can't remember the name, that's essentially "Skills and Powers" for Shadowrun. That was the real way to "twink" your SR character out. I had to ban it along with S&Ps for AD&D.

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Steeler

Naw. Just prioritize resources and flip through the Bioware and Street Sam books. Pretty soon you're a katana-swinging, marathon running, adrenaline-pumping, kicking, punching, super-immune, armor-skinned maniac insensitive to pain blowing holes in walls with your dual-wield panther cannons while stuffing your face full of myco-protein bars.

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Uranium - 235

The best SR game I ran we limited Availability to 5 or 6 and a slew of other restrictions for a 'low power' game.

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[R-DEV]NikovK

I hate 3.5 and d20 and whatnot because the players skill is his ability to build a character, not actually play. Maybe I'm just stuck with rules-laywer door-kickers.

... Well one infectiously bad one ...

Gambit7

I'm a big SR fan... only I've never played the game. hehe... I've got some books though, even some spreadsheets, music, nethacking minigame progs., and loads of individually packed SR d6s. Problem is, I've always thought the system too massive for the people I know who'll play. Not to mention, they just cant grasp the modernized fantasy element of it (trolls, elves, dwarfs with miniguns, etc.)

I'm slowly working on a cyberpunk setting using the Wild Talents engine for superheroes. Basically, I'm gonna sport a gritty supers world where all the cyberpunk goodness is present. I'll probably rape SR for that stuff.

I'll mention, SR is probably the #1 requested conversion for the Fantasy Grounds gaming table... but, we just kept running into legal issues. If they did something like DnD 4.0 for SR... zomg - that'd be awesome. Of all the games out there ever made, SR is the most compatible with such a system (online tabletop or MMO) - yet there's always an aversion to it for some reason.

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TheFeniX

First off: I'm pretty sure Panther's are well above an 8 availability. Also, if you allow characters like that in your campaign, there are many ways to down-play them. Make runs that center more around intelligence gathering because front-line assaults will fail even with the combat monster Sam. His insane skills and powers will come in handy, but only in certain circumstances. He's an asset to the team, not the only guy worth being there.

Find him a pound for pound match either in the corp world or another runner team. Maybe all that cyberware came off a buddy of another runner who isn't too keen about the exchange. Maybe some jacked-up psiad has a "who's the best" grudge to settle against the overpowered Sam. You don't get to be that good without people noticing.

How many high-class establishments can a player get into when he's sporting dermal sheathing and his power requirements could run Seatle for a week? So, the team "leader" is stuck in the van the whole time while the Combat Mage and/or Decker is running the show. They decide runs more useful to their skills take precedent.

Lonestar sees two Panthers off the sheets of a criminal gun-running operation. A bust involving High powered weapons and numerous cases of illegally obtained cyberware could put a few good marks in some detective's record. He decided to hound the runner team and interfere with business until they do something stupid. Now the runners either have to kill the cop (bad idea) or setup their own plan to make him fall on his face (again, more centered around intelligence and intrigue rather than brute force).

All this boils down to is: power gamers don't ruin games. GMs who don't know how to handle power gamers do. Know your players and react accordingly. I've never had an issue. Then again, I don't run games that only center around the basic runs given by Johnson's. My PCs compete against other runners, get hassled by cops if they make too much noise, and even have problems if they don't pay off the local street gang. Sure, a guy with a bat isn't a huge deal, but 20 guys with chains, bats, and pistols jumping 4 runners in a dark alley after the runners shoot that 1 guy with a bat makes them think twice about the consequences.

Do you know how many Drow PCs my players wanted to run after reading about Drizzt Do'Urden? Too many to count. They expected this epic tale of a Dark Elf being made into a hero and being accepted as equals among the surface dwellers. Too bad by playing them poorly they usually found misery and (more often) death.

Same thing in Shadowrun: everyone wants to play a Troll because they're combat bonuses. Then they get mad when I have them run into racist business owners and cops. I don't make it a key plot point, but I make sure to throw it in often enough that they realize it's not all fun a games to run a 7 foot troll. You've got to have a better handle on things and imagination to make your characters realize this isn't Disneyland. They're hardened runners with numerous people at any given time looking to injure or kill them. Hell, we had one run where another team shadowed the PCs on their way back from a run. While they were all out (some celebrating, some talking to their fixer) before the exchange with the Johnson, I had the other team rob them. So, now they only know that their data is gone, and they've got less than 8 hours to find the team and get the data back.

An assault cannon and cyberware that turns you into Iron Man will only help once you've found the bad guys.

Also, if the runners aren't spending half their earnings on new equipment, ammo, fetishes, and medical bills: then you aren't pushing them hard enough. And assault cannon ammo isn't cheap. Hehe.

You mean the 200 page general combat section (which doesn't include magic or rigging). Oh yea, that was fun to memorize.

Anyways, I've managed to thread-jack this pretty well. I will say that I might be interested in a D&D game if I have the time and someone else wants to DM. I doubt I have the time and money to blow on all new books, but I still have a whole stack of 2nd edition books at my disposal. Although, my DM and PC guide ran off somewhere I don't know.

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Steeler

Fenix, I'm talking SR 2 bioware - no power, all meat. When the GM wants that to go bad on someone, it goes VERY bad. I think it was redacted in SR 3.0 anyway.

Anyway anyway, I was joking. I was also 14 at the time I made the character, I think.

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TheFeniX

SR 2.0 was pretty easy to twink with a novice GM. I made a combat mage that could out armed combat our samurai by activating a few spell locks. Can't do that anymore, and for good reason. He could also toss a killer fireball with only needing to resist something like 4M drain. With a few spell focuses and a spell category focus, that was cake to burn through.

The only class really overpowered in 3.0 are psiads. They have abilities on par with what I've heard about Druids from D&D 3.0+.

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Gambit7

Fenix, you ever thought of running a campaign online with a prog. like Fantasy Grounds? You sound like you really grok your SR. Btw, all of my SR crap is 4e (which I've heard is the best of the bunch; supposedly more streamlined and deadly). I recently got a gander at the most recent printing of 4e (2008) after Fanpro got out of the picture... it's a good book for sure and eliminates all the errata.

Anyways, all this SR talk is getting me interested again.
Maybe I'll give it a shot, but man what a buttload of work - at least it's heavily supported though (unlike all these indy titles I have... ur totally on your own with those, even though the systems might be easier).

I really really wish SR would be on par with DnD 4.0, that'd just solve all my niggling gaming needs in one fowl swoop.

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Uranium - 235

My last SR game we were a little lightweight in certain aspects (too many ninja-esque characters and mages), and I ended up making a Dwarf Rigger / Decker / Marksman / All-around know-it-all. Was a pain in the ass to try to squeeze everything I could into the character. Was good to use some of the lower-grade gear, however (as having the best starting cyberdeck and utilities or rigger link was way beyond my essence and budget).

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TheFeniX

I definitely wouldn't mind making life Hell for a few shadowrunners, but I've barely got time to game TF2 much less find all my old scenarios or hammer out some new ones.

Also, my campaigns are particularly deadly. Not "kill you because I can," but I give my players a rope and let them hang themselves. You'd be surprised at how many AD&Ders or Vampire players making the jump to SR laugh at using cover or retreating when out gunned or outnumbered. They stop laughing when they're busy "rolling" up another character every other session. My high school buddies loved my style of GMing, but some people loathe it. Then again, it's been 8 years, I may not have the edge anymore.

That said, I certainly wouldn't mind playing a character in someone elses D&D or SR game. I just need something laid back due to my schedule.

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DrakenViator

Well I have to much invested into 3.5 books and supplements to make any drastic changes right off the bat. I do like a few of the things I am hearing about 4.0 but I'm not really sold on the idea.

I will say that depending on who your DM is will make or break the game. I will admit that there have been some rule mongers that I have come across, where they are looking for every answer to pre-printed. Then there are others who shoot from the hip. Both can create good campaign if done right though.

Personally I am starting to find the core book as more of 'guidelines' versus rules as of late. It makes for a more relaxed game play, where you can focus more on story and RP and not just how many orc heads you can split open.


Oh well I'm getting off topic.

To 4.0 I'm on more of a 'let's wait and see' mindset right now.

~ Draken