WhiskeySix

The TG primer in nine words: "Think, communicate, don't die, and don't be an idiot."

That works for any game.... regardless of how fast you can run or how thick your body-armor is

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Reflexes are for mistakes only. Reaction implies surprise. Be surprised less.

Magnum50

WOW... I'm not the only one...surprise... Great post.

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Magnum
www.simhq.com

ScratchMonkey

First, applause to the post from Sc1ence quoted above.

I first came to TG to play BF2. I was amazed to find a server that required squad play in a game that was all about squads. I don't care about realism, but I do care about teamwork. It's my whole reason to play multi-player games. I love co-op games (of which WoW is an extreme example) and play PvP games only when they involve a co-op aspect (ie. working as a team). I have no interest in Quake-like single-player arenas.

I "suffer" TG's realism rules (having played on the BF2 and ETQW servers) because those are the house rules, not because I agree with them. They're what I pay in return for good co-op play.

Some of you may recall a scrim with MatureAsskickers. That's my "home team", and shares my value of team-based play. And it largely shares my lack of value for realism. (We started with Tribes 2, hardly a "realistic" game.) I was TG's advocate within my team, trying to get them to accept the constraints TG placed on MA in order to get a scrim off the ground. We had some pretty heated internal threads over that.

I also understand how hard it is to establish the popularity of a server. There's constant tension between staying true to one's vision (eg. TG's realism objective) and maintaining server population. I don't envy you that tightrope walk.

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Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

Vortex421

I'm sorry for my repetitiveness, but do you have any data to back up your claims? Can you show me a TG server where it's become a "haven for smacktards"?

To be honest, I rather dislike the tone of your entire post. To talk of "forcing less ethical players into the correct mindset" and "enforcing as many rules as you can in every game so you can weed out these problem players right from the start", not to mention "Zero tolerance is the only way", doesn't sound very TG-like. It also doesn't sound like the kind of community that I have invested my time and money into.

Point 2 of the Primer: "Create an environment where there was mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby."

If you want people to change their minds and change their points of view you must be prepared to work with them, to teach them, and to lead them. You do NOT beat them over the head with a stick until they cooperate. Therein lies the path to failure.

I've said all I wish to say on this matter - thank you again for taking the time to read my lengthy posts.

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Clefspeare

I think that the post you quoted was a bit exaggerated. I am a temp admin for Counter Strike. Basically my job as temp is to keep the newer (and sometimes veteran) players in check. If I guy is blatantly disobeying our MOTD(rules) of the server and will not respond to warnings and such, I kick him or ban him if the situation calls for it. In that manner, it is a no tolerance deal. I obviously give them time to shape up with warnings, but in the end they are the ones to decide if they get the boot or not.

Laying down the law is not a bad thing by any standards. If you let someone off the hook with not so much as a warning, then you are leaving room for more rule breakers. Many people realize they are doing something wrong once they get kicked. Often times after I kick someone, they come back in the server, ask what they did wrong, and I make sure they know what they did.

Obviously I have not been at this whole admin and leadership type shindig, but that is how I would deal with people in most situations.

I don't know if I got off topic there.

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black_Mirror

I guess.. If you would ban/ kick him without a warning and do not explain his mistakes to him ( what means work with him and spend your time showing him what he did wrong) that would be " no tolerance "

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Clefspeare

Well if you were to kick/ban someone without warning or an explanation if he were to come back in (We usually tell the person to take it to our Contact An Admin forum if they are making a huge deal out of it.), then that's not really using your administration to the betterment of the server.

Based on that, I would say the guy probably didn't mean absolutely no toleance period. In any circumstance involving new players, how are they supposed to know how we play if he immediately gets the boot for running off when he assumes that our server is just a pub server? I believe at first there needs to be some tolerance and then, if it continues, then no tolerance.

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black_Mirror

Thats what i´m talking about. You reach them your hand as an admin or as Community.. you are willing to show them they we play and if they still refuse to accept it.. then *kick* kkthxbye

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Clefspeare

Indeed.

However, in the offchance (And not so off chance for newer games) that some people come in just to mess things up, warnings really aren't going to mean anything. Some young pups come in and start swearing out the admins or something, I don't believe a warning is necessary because that is just wrong by even pub standards.

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Trooper

Well my statistics come from 3 years of being an admin for a few games TG has had in past. Including Red Orchestra COD2 COD4 and GRAW. So seeing a complete influx of players who not only dint give a crap for TGs rules but thought by buying a slot made them ruler. This has included many SMs still today who have since changed their attitude.

And you really want an example of a run and gun server? Try the PR server about 4 months ago. And yes once a player signs up to be a supporting member they are held to a higher standard. You should know the rules and follow them.

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that sounds like a good idea trooper.
-Vulcan

DrBeat

Agreed. Not just SMs, but TG tag wearing people in general are held to a higher standard because you are representing the community, IHS or not.

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Vulcan

Guess i'm late to the party here.

I think the main point that's trying to be relayed is the tactical part of the servers that these guys have noticed not being held to standards. If you want to take anything away from this thread, I would recommend taking a look at each others games, players and gameplay.

We're all responsible for the community and it's standards. Within the context of the primer, whether it's realism or not, you should be utilizing every part of the game to achieve your objective, not just what works. Willingness to explore tactics with a variety of kits and make them work as well as enforcing limitations on certain parts of the game to keep it tactical are very critical and key. As for the boundaries thing, off the bat I don't like it but i'm also old school. Regardless of what game you play, limiting tactics with boundaries or artificial limits as to where you can go degrades the gameplay with every bit. I can't speak on COD 4 if those were unrealistic or demeaning to tactics but I would take a hard look for yourself and take the posts as informative instead of inflammatory.

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Skylark

Heavily edited due to accidentally posting it before I was done.

I stopped playing battlefield because of how quickly one can be revived and respawned. It lends itself (completely in my opinion) to not caring about lives. If the time between respawns increased to a minute or two, I think that might make a BIG difference in the game. I like the longer revive, too. That would make it worth the time. I think the two go hand in hand. Because if there respawn is the same, why bother taking longer to let the medic do it's work? But again, this is all about how I enjoy a game. If the BF community, and TG as a whole, decides to play a game in a certain way, then I will be fine with that. Why? Because TG has always been about playing a game in a mature way. Teamwork. Cooperation. Unless something radically changes at TG (which is one of the signs of the Apocalypse), whatever is decided will be good. It may change and flow with the times and opinions, especially with new games, but it will be a good game. Some games just don't appeal to certain people. Fine. I'm sure something here at TG will appeal to you. And I'm sure the way it is played will appeal to you as well.

additionally, I haven't played many other games besides CSS and (recently) left 4 dead. One of the biggest things about Counter strike I like is: If you die, then you're dead. It's over. Until that round. That's realism to me. I understand the point that respawns similate larger armies and the like, but I don't really get into it. I died, 30 seconds later I'm back in the fight. Let's just keep throwing bodies at a spot and hope we break through? (just my preference) I think the finality of your death is what makes a game less of a run and gun and more of a strategy game.

When I did play BF2142 and BF2, i didn't have much problem with the way it was played (from our view and the admin's work). Granted, it's been a while. I plan on trying to play it some more once we move into the new house and I get everything set up and ready to go.

I have great respect for anyone who is willing to be an admin here. It is a much harder job then being admin in 99% of the other places. People who are new here come in and expect the same pub mentality. You have to tell them otherwise and deal with the morons who refuse to care about our rules.

I think it comes down to this basic rule:
if you can talk about it calmly, it will work. If you have to resort to anger and nastiness, you will fail.
(This is why I tend to stay out of a lot of discussions in the sandbox, as a sidenote. Often it doesn't stay at the high level of communication I prefer to enjoy at TG.)

This is true. We are. MWA HA HA HA HA

I think this is a gross exageration of the point. It also seems to be lacking of a desire to talk about the issue.

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ScratchMonkey

Re the "tone of posts", my policy is to apply Hanlon's Razor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

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Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

Clefspeare

Skylark is my 39 year old hero.

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