Xen

I missed this the first time I read through it.

This is part of the reason I said to look at CS:S as a model, because it has been around for so long. The PCS admin Team has been there and done that, sideways. Learn from them, ask questions on issues, engage them, see if what they learned can apply to your situations. We have awesome games still after 6 years because of the system in place that took this long to put in place. To dismiss it, only because the game doesn't seem to apply to your game is very short sighted.

As for the boundries, in CS:S, we too had to use them for a time when we had a lot of new players joining. It was used to show where it was unacceptable to have defenders, but those boundries where set with some leeway. If a player could explain logically why he was there, and how it helped his objective, the boundry would be moved. This was usually done in the forums afterward the map. If it was communicated to the team, those boundries could be breached in the case of flank's or if the bomb was down. In the end we were able to do away with the system because we kept reinforcing the objective. If your not working with your team on the objective, then you had no justification being away from it.

As for killhunters, warn them, then kick them. It's the only way to get people to realize they are truly in the wrong about something. If they come back, and are disrespectful to the admin that kicked them, kick them again, no warning needed, it's a breach of the primer #2. If they show up again and are disrespectful to players and the admin, ban them for a time. You have to instill a reward and punishment system that is transparent. If x happens, y is the result.

PCS-proven was setup with this in mind. It promoted recognition of players that demostrate the rules everyday in their playstyle. These players you know will help futher the community, in teaching new people the server rule and be people who are examples for the rest of the community to follow. The only way to be inducted into PCS-P is through nomination by PCS-P members who have recognized PCS-P qaulities within the nominee. Then the nominee is discussed by the PCP-P members and finally a vote is cast. The debate and vote are based on whether or not the nominee has shown knowledge of the server rules, and how well he/she demostrates them. Trust me, talent is not part of the criteria, otherwise I wouldn't be a member.

If a PCS-P violates the server rules, they get no warnings, simply because they KNOW better. They can be removed from the PCS-P list and subject to ban for a period of time, depending on severity of the violation. All PCS-P know you don't throw a HE nade into a hostage room, it violates the rules of completing your objective. T's defend their hostages, CT's rescue them. Nading them is not defending or rescuing them.

Anyways, I hope this has been of some help to those that are looking for ways to gain some control into their respective games.

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Curiosity is going to kill this Cat.

Long Bow

Xen your right that COD4 could learn from the PCS admin team and I think we have. I believe allot of your rules were used as a template for the COD 4 rules. One of our admins, possibly more, were avid PCS players and have had input on interpriting the rules. We currently have different rules in place but we probably have a somewhat similar style of play in the end? Things like the flanking you talked about are allowed but only under cirtain circumstances etc.

I think that the admin team and TG regulars could easily grasp the open map concept you guys seem to have in place. However like you said you needed the boundaries at first to educate new players and develope a play style that was acceptable. We still get lots of new players on the server, players that need that education. The player base for your game matured along with your rules, I think COD4 needs this maturing time as well. As good as your rules are, the player base may not be ready for it? Does that make any sense?

KillDaddy

I agree. I do believe the rules the PCS guys have in place could work very well on our CoD4 servers, but as stated, the game is still fairly new and as such, we get a lot of griefers and kiddies who don't care about rules or anything but their kill count. Hopefully now that World at War is out, they will move on to that and CoD4 can be enjoyed in the proper TG manner. But then the problem will arise again on the possible future WaW server.

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Clefspeare

It's not like the counter strike server has only older players. We have had quite an influx of new players in the past month or so. The thing is that these new people see that we uphold the rules and objective boundaries, love the style, and play nonstop for a couple months, so they feel like they have been here for a while.

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Skylark

38 (on nov 28 that is)

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Clefspeare

Dangit, missed it by that much.

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Taip3n

Happy Birthday!

Edit: Darn. It's now the 29th here but hey I'm still awake n cruising from the 28th, so well wishes nevertheless!

Xen

Taking back my thread...

Clef brings up a good point, we always get new players to CS:S, and those players must be educated in how PCS is played. We don't go back to an old ruleset to instruct them with until they understand. We tend to continue enforcing the server the same for everyone. While it's good to find the ruleset that fits with your server, make sure each ruleset still follows the Primer.

Game Officers need to alway insure that your admins are on the same page, there should never be an issue with an admin enforcing a rule that was recalled on the forums, even if the admin disagrees with the removal of the rule. I've always kind of seen the GO, of any game, as the final word on an issue, he/she is put in place to insure that an issue never has to be escialated to Apophis or other TG site managers. To do that, the GO must have the athority to enforce and be able to lead a team of admins. Having admins counter his athority is not conducive to an orginized server. Which can lead to a lack of respect by players towards the admin team. There can be no favorites when it comes to enforcing the server rules, all, pub, SM, or IHS member, must be treated the same. For example, by letting one of your IHS members do something that's against the ruleset, only to bring the ban hammer down on someone else who did the same thing moments later. You will lose the respect you need to manage your servers. The big thing in favor for CS:S is the fact that we have consistacy. Everyone has to be held accountable on the server. I have done some things in the past in CS:S to bet kicked by an admin for, even short termed banned for talking back to the admin that kicked me. I was banned for the short term for not using the proper channels to appeal what had happened and got into an argument on the server instead. I was unbanned 24 hours later but it shows that even a SM is to follow the rules laid down.

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Curiosity is going to kill this Cat.

Eroak

And this isn't happening where and what evidence can you provide? I'm not trying to debunk your arugment, but I want to know where it is so it can be fixed or brought to the right person. Discussing problems to we are blue in the face doesn't fix anything, Actions to fix problems is much more effecient and makes everyone happy. Who and what is the problem? Give that to me or another admin and we'll take actions to get issues resolved.

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|Think Tank|TGU Admin|BFx Admin|Community Improvement|
From the TG Primer: 2) Create an environment where there is
mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members
would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby.

Xen

Not to beat a dead horse, but I did bring up an incident involving COD 4 and the boundry rule. There were posts on TG by the GO that the boundry rule had been lifted, yet a few admins where still enforcing the boundry rule, after the post dates. It's a resolved issue now and that is why I used it as an example of GO's needing to insure that all their admins are on the same page.

I started this thread to bring minds together to find solutions to these issues not just rant about the problems. I've also posted ideas that people can take away and use in their own games, if they feel it fits in their games.

No where did I say I needed GO or admin resolution to these issues, but instead I wanted to get a litmus test on whether or not they were even veiwed as issues by TG members as a whole. By the responses so far, I would say that on some things, yes there maybe issues. I choose to leave names out because finger pointing was not the intent of the thread. If I wanted to point fingers I would have done it in private, in the contact an admin forum as it should be handled.

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Curiosity is going to kill this Cat.

Hambergler

@OP

I can only comment on the BFxx series.
I share the same feelings as you but in my opinion you are placing blame on the players when the blame should go to the game developers. BF2142 maps, kits, options for tactics have literally been cut in half when compared to previous incarnations. EA certainly did not have our primer in mind when making 2142, but where trying to appeal to more casual gamers (very few at TG are casual gamers). Having played the BF series games extensively I can say that the admins and players on the TG 2142 server do an excellent job conforming to the disciplines within the sops and primer within the confines of that particular game. The game got old for me over a year ago and there is not one thing the admins could have done to make it more enjoyable/tactical. The meat grinding at the choke points, repetitive tactics and lack of deception killed the radio star for me.

I enjoyed some epic games here with BF2, and even a few with 2142. I hope a game comes out soon that lights a fire under everyone and brings everyone together.

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Eroak

As I read through this, I saw it as a call to act more then a poll of the community's thoughts. I apologize. Your right GO's need to make sure that the admins are working together and help guide them if there are issues between, Like asch guiding the GOs if they are in disagreement. From what I see in the BFx series, Tempus does a good job stepping in when admins cannot come to an agreement after a day or 2. At BFx though, every mod and platform is slightly different and there are a few rules/SOPs that dont match up. But the BFx crew even across platforms will try and stay on the same page when it comes to handle out judgements up violations and how to handle them after actions take place.

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|Think Tank|TGU Admin|BFx Admin|Community Improvement|
From the TG Primer: 2) Create an environment where there is
mutual respect for your fellow gamers and where all members
would be working together to advance the enjoyment of their hobby.

Jack Bauer

WOW!!!! that is really all i have to say....

I came here as a pubbie in CS:S. When i arrived here at TG i thought that i was Columbus finding the new world. The way you guys worked as a team and communicated fascinated me. so i played and waited..... contemplated getting an SM.....played some more and FINALLY asked an admin if it would be alright to wear the tag. and i do believe his response to me was: now i am saying this as AN EXAMPLE so i don't want to be chewed out by all the hot headiness that is going on in this thread.... i waited several months, (7 to be exact) until i even PUT the tag on. BY doing this i felt apart of the community, i was one voice out of hundreds that could be heard and I COULD make a difference. when i got SM everything changed for me. i took great pride now in this community. i ventured out into other games here at TG.

it seems to me that people are forgetting that this is a community and not a clan!!! whatever happened to telling people to take the TG tag off if they are not representing the standards that are there to were such tag???

i have seen numerous occasions on ALL titles that i play that Tagged players do not follow the SOP's of the respected games?? where is the aggravation to wards them??? where is the hostility to wards them??? i know i am sure upset at that, but all i can do is VOICE my opinion!!!

This thread from what i have read is not finger pointing at the titles here at TG. WHAT HAS been said is pointing out certain flaws that people see, and the call/need to correct them!!


then my question to the admin team is this??? why not change the maps??? why not play custom maps?? what is the fascination with the run n' gun pub server maps??? Do you not think with ALL of the changes and rules that you, the admin team set up, that this might have been overlooked?? those maps are not conducive to tactical play look at how the maps are set up!! if the rebuttal will be then our server will not be ranked.....is that an acceptable price to pay, for OUTSTANDING team work and tactics???


agreed.... but why do you think that they are doing this?? a lack in game play, a lack in trust, a lack in respect??? something had to push them to go this far!! I too would like to see the bithcer's go away but they have to have a voice too, if they are too immature to accept things then...should they be here to begin with??? but on the flip side....they are PAYING customers that expect certain quality.... if you bought a jelly of the month club and you started to receive goat **** instead.....would you not voice your opinion and demand the same standard of product that you got when you first payed for the service???

all in all i think that i am going to end this rant of wondering thoughts by saying this:

play in general has fallen...we all have read the posts in our respective communities...why don't we then do something about it?? nobody likes a snitch but somethings have to give... ban hammer possibly.....restrictions??? BUT SOMETHING!!!! i love this community like everyone else, but discontent breeds like the pleague.... lets stop it, no madder who's "fault" it is

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Xen

I disagree, everyone tries to use the game as the scape goat. A game can be played many different ways, fast, slow, run and gun or uber tactical. It's the players responsability to insure that he is playing within the primer and the ruleset that TG promotes. Any game can be run and gun, team deathmatch, or having, in the case of BFx series, squads actively working together through a CO to get the objectives done, where there is constant communication, which leads to sqaud level teamwork and tactics.

Before I quit 2142, it got to the point as a squad leader, I rarely heard a plan from the CO, everyone just sprinted to whatever transport they where trying to get and raced off to capture the closest objective. Then the only commands given after that point, was a point and click order on the mini map. With players being denied access to half full squads because they were not assault medics, to CO's down right ignoring recon squads due to assumed lonewolfing, it was no longer fun. Now all this was hashed out in the 2142 thread about recon, most of the regulars that play 2142 will groan when they remember that thread. Through out the thread it was nothing but recon bashing,and it left a feeling that those who played recon, where not welcome on TG servers. I know I didn't feel welcome playing there anymore. So, I said farewell and haven't been back since.

Many times it was brought up, if you have a full squad of assault medics, a sniper would be useless. So, with 99.9% of the server running around spamming rockets, recon ends up being useless. There doesn't need to be communication at that point because as soon as someone shoots at your squad there goes 15 rockets and now no one is there to fire at you any more. Then the com's start requesting supplies, so they can do it all over again. That's the extent of com's I felt were on the server, before I left.

Flags and ground held are objectives, not the number of tickets the enemy has. To be in the realm of even remote realism, per the primer, you would not know how many troops the other side has. It would then come down to how do you hold the ground you got, and take the ground from them.

As for the last part of your post about games not having TG primer in mind when they were developed, that's the point. None of the games played here at TG were designed with TG primer in mind, it's upto the players to apply the Primer not the other way around. It falls back to Player Resonsability to follow the Primer and it's the Admin's duty to ensure that it is being followed.

A side note: I know most, if not all, Admins at TG pay the SM fee's. Which means, they are donating both their time and money, to ensure their chosen games run smoothly. To me that should be respected, Admins do not get perks for doing their job, at most they get recognition from their peers. Make sure your Admin teams know they have the backing of their server community. Let them know in your repective forums what is being done right, and what could be done differently.

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Curiosity is going to kill this Cat.

Superfast

The quality of each random game on our servers is dependent on how much experience the players in it have and what style they have. That's why each game is different, some can be fun and others not so fun. The perception of how a good and TG-right game is also depends on who is judging it. So one new to TG might view it differently from one with experience, who will demand more and different gameplay. We've all travelled so and so far here at TG and we got to respect each other regardless of where we are.

To me the primer makes me think of the big picture regardless of game or experience. It's great because of it's simplicity. To me it says what it says, play in a mature fashion, play with teamwork and realism as best can be and have fun.

The primer can be applied to many games in many different ways. From PR, CSS, 2142 to L4D. Each has a different level of realism and maturity we play after. Sure we can disagree on certain areas in each game, but i feel the GO's and admins have gotten good at listening to the members and to find a reasonable compromise most are happy with. You can't apply certain realism rules to one game, because it works in another, You'll ruin a game and fun in it if the rules get too complex or you try changing it into something it's not. Not all games can be played fully realistic here, we're into so many different types of games. Some of them are just for fun, some are full battle simulations.

So i actually think we're doing pretty ok at TG. Sure we may not always agree, but let's solve it by discussing it in a mature and fair fashion where everyone's voice counts!

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