Perceiving Reality - Page 2

**sordavie** · 07-23-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckets

I was going to look into Kabbalah right after I had my thetans analyzed.

How much does it cost for an E-meter reading these days?

**Buckets** · 07-23-2009, 02:31 PM

You know, I don't know. I was just going to pull my savings out of the bank and head down to the CoS for a friendly talk.

JWG · 07-23-2009, 04:23 PM

Yes, I find it very interesting.

Sordavie: Ok, what do you particularly follow and lean most to when it comes to esoteric, religion, philosophy type subjects? Obviously you dislike the Kabbalistic notions. So I'd like to hear what is SOMEWHAT logical or worth reading to you...? I've not heard much other than bashing of thought, but I'd love to hear what you find intriguing and worthwhile.

ScratchMonkey · 07-23-2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckets

You know, I don't know. I was just going to pull my savings out of the bank and head down to the CoS for a friendly talk.

**sordavie** · 07-23-2009, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWG

Sordavie: Ok, what do you particularly follow and lean most to when it comes to esoteric, religion, philosophy type subjects? Obviously you dislike the Kabbalistic notions. So I'd like to hear what is SOMEWHAT logical or worth reading to you...? I've not heard much other than bashing of thought, but I'd love to hear what you find intriguing and worthwhile.

Well, again, you asked me a loaded question. I don't follow or lean towards any esoteric, religion, or philosophy type subjects. Although I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that last phrase. 'Esoteric' is an adjective while 'religion' and 'philosophy' are nouns. So the sentence you've written is very awkward to read and comprehend. Are you asking about what religious or philosophical tenets I lean towards or follow as in believe? Or are you asking about what religious or philosophical subjects I lean towards or follow as in read and keep up with the latest developments? Or what? I'm not sure what an esoteric type subject is. Is that like Scientology? The secrets of the Free Masons? Timecube.com?

I read, listen, or think about stuff and then I critically evaluate it to see whether I ought to believe it, disbelieve it, or suspend judgment. There are many things that are worth reading. But that doesn't entail that those things are worth believing. I'm not sure what you want, a reading list?

Sordavie's partial reading list of worthwhile philosophy: (It's a partial list, but everything on here is worthwhile to study if you're interested in philosophy spanning most central subjects of philosophy - Metaphysics, Epistemology, Ethics, Political Philosophy, Philosophy of Mind, Philosophy of Language, Philosophy of Religion, and Philosophy of Science. Logic is missing.)

Plato, Euthyphro, Republic, Crito, Defence of Socrates
Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, Politics, Physics, Metaphysics, Categories, Posterior Analytics, De Anima
Aquinas, Summa Theologiae
Anselm, Proslogion
Augustine, The Confessions
Descartes, Meditations on First Philosophy
Hobbes, Leviathan
Locke, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding
Leibniz, Monadology, New Essays on Human Understanding
Berkeley, A Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge, Three Dialogues Between Hylus and Philonous
Hume, A Treatise of Human Nature, Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion
Kant, Critique of Pure Reason
Marx and Engles, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844
Mill, On Liberty, Utilitarianism
Nietzsche, On the Geneology of Morals
Russell, Our Knowledge of the External World, "On Denoting", Why I am not a Christian, and Other Essays on Religion and related Subjects
Wittgenstein, On Certainty
Moore, Principia Ethica, "Proof of an External World"
Ayer, Language, Truth, and Logic
Grice, "Meaning"
Hempel, "Deductive-Nomological vs. Statistical Explanation"
Popper, Conjectures and Refutations
Kuhn, Structure of Scientific Revolutions
Carnap, "Empiricism, Semantics, and Ontology"
Quine, "Two Dogmas of Empiricism", "Natural Kinds", "On What There Is"
Hare, Freedom and Reason
Rawls, A Theory of Justice
Williams, A Critique of Utilitarianism
Kripke, Naming and Necessity
Putnam, "The Meaning of Meaning"
Davidson, "A Coherence Theory of Truth and Knowledge", "Truth and Meaning", Inquiries in to Truth and Interpretation
Chisholm, "The Problem of Criterion"
Nagel, "What is it Like to be a Bat"
Chomsky, Behavioral and Brain Sciences
Gettier, "Is Justified True Belief Knowledge?"
Nozick, Anarchy, State, and Utopia, "Knowledge and Skepticism", Philosophical Explanations
Nagel, "Moral Luck"
Parfit, Reasons and Persons
Armstrong, "Universals as Attributes", "The Nature of Possiblity"
Lewis, On the Plurality of Worlds, "Elusive Knowledge", "New Work for a Theory of Universals", "Psychophysical and Theoretical Identifications"
van InWagen, Material Beings, "The Incompatibility of Free Will and Determinism"
Sider, Four Dimensionalism

Any well rounded philosopher who's completed course work in a graduate program will have read most if not all of these. Textbooks on logic and critical thinking are also worthwhile.

JWG · 07-23-2009, 06:25 PM

Good to go, thanks.

**Gill** · 07-23-2009, 07:56 PM

Sordavie: What compelled the basic building blocks of matter to form biological life? If that's too vague, I'll refine the question.

ScratchMonkey · 07-23-2009, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sordavie

Here's an easy start: There isn't any science going on there. This guy is being disingenuous in using the word 'science' to describe what's going on.

Here's an analytic argument for this opinion: Science by definition studies only the physical world. That's due to the way the scientific method works and science is defined by its method. This guy claims that we can know what reality is like outside of the physical world through certain teachings or whatever. By definition, these teachings or whatever cannot be based on science.

I encountered this before, when visiting a big Buddist temple site north of Santa Rosa as part of an "open house". I couldn't remember the name but found it by hunting around in Google's satellite views for the notable architecture:

http://www.odiyan.org/

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...25642&t=h&z=16

From http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/openeng.htm

Quote:

The wisdom of Kabbalah is a scientific tool for studying the spiritual world. To explore our world, we use natural sciences such as physics, chemistry, and biology. But natural sciences study only the physical world we perceive with our five senses. To fully understand the world we live in, we need a research tool that can explore the hidden realm, that which our senses cannot perceive. This tool is the wisdom of Kabbalah.

This gobbledygook is incredibly frustrating and irritating. It's basically saying, "to understand reality, you need to take my word for it." It's basically a sales pitch to get you to buy their books, without ever really knowing what the claim is. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes: To avoid looking like an idiot, one is motivated to play along. But I don't mind looking like an idiot, and I call shenanigans. These guys are scam artists just shilling snake oil with a different flavor of fancy language.

And I felt the same frustration listing to the pitch made at that Northern California temple.

Mind you, I don't mind people throwing their money at this stuff. After all, I paid a pretty good sum to go watch the Star Trek movie. But I don't think Star Trek has any connection with reality, either.

ScratchMonkey · 07-23-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillespie

Sordavie: What compelled the basic building blocks of matter to form biological life? If that's too vague, I'll refine the question.

Well, there's the electrical force, which is responsible for all chemical reactions.

**Gill** · 07-23-2009, 08:51 PM

My question isn't loaded in any way. I'm only interested in the answer. I don't have one, because I'm not religious and I'm not familiar with the subject matter.

**sordavie** · 07-23-2009, 09:06 PM

A new entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on my favorite philosopher has just been posted. David Lewis: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/david-lewis/

Anything written by him is worth reading.

**sordavie** · 07-23-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gillespie

Sordavie: What compelled the basic building blocks of matter to form biological life? If that's too vague, I'll refine the question.

I don't know. Best hypothesis: the initial conditions of the universe behaving in accordance with the laws of nature.

What's so special about biological life anyway? I mean, what compelled the basic building blocks of matter to form stars or black holes or uranium are questions that are just as deep. Best hypothesis about those: the initial conditions of the universe behaving in accordance with the laws of nature.

Shane · 07-23-2009, 10:25 PM

As a surfer I can tell you life is all about waves

in every way. As an artist I can tell you that even as the creator of paintings and sculptures, I cant tell you how or why some things work while others do not. As a realist I can tell you without all these questions and wonders, life would be a really, really, boring thing. May you never find what your looking for.

JWG · 07-24-2009, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScratchMonkey

This gobbledygook is incredibly frustrating and irritating. It's basically saying, "to understand reality, you need to take my word for it." It's basically a sales pitch to get you to buy their books, without ever really knowing what the claim is. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes: To avoid looking like an idiot, one is motivated to play along. But I don't mind looking like an idiot, and I call shenanigans. These guys are scam artists just shilling snake oil with a different flavor of fancy language.

What are they selling "with a different flavor"? They're just an organization that studies and is making public their findings of the old texts and teachings handed down for many many years on the Kabbalah.

Mind you.. ALL texts and lectures are FREE of charge and available online. They're interesting to read. They are not force feeding any cult teachings. Just a theory on the connection between the physical and metaphysical. They are not asking anything in return or any money. Just providing the lectures and texts on their findings for those who are interested to read it.

**sordavie** · 07-24-2009, 05:44 AM

Many things are interesting to read. Fiction is interesting to read. But I don't think the science fiction novels I read are true. I have a friend who finds horoscopes interesting to read, but she doesn't believe them; she's merely entertained for a few minutes each day. Are you reading these things for entertainment or do you think they provide you with wisdom and insight in to reality? If the latter, what makes you think this stuff provides you with any wisdom or insight in to reality? If you think it does provide you with wisdom or insight, then you better have good reasons to think that that's the case.