JWG

I believe it suites my needs, spiritually. Not physically or mentally. It fills the gap in the spiritual arena for me. Just as some find Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or other religions. I find this a good mix of spirituality for ME. I just made this thread to share it with others. Some may find it entertaining or "filling" like myself for their own spiritual journey.

For the longest time, I've been leaning more toward agnostic or atheist, but I do believe all of Man still needs some sort of spiritual fulfilling to be "full." Just my belief, not fact by any means.

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El_Gringo_Grande

Many things in Science Fiction become true. Fiction inspires people to achieve fiction.

Without those crazy and ignorant ideas where would we be?

I do recognize at some point it is best to give up on the crazy.

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I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
- "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek

ScratchMonkey

"Science fiction" covers a wide variety of literature. The flavor where things ultimately come true is the sub-genre of "speculative fiction". (This sub-genre can occur inside larger sub-genre. Star Trek has elements of fantasy combined with speculative fiction.)

Some of the best fantasy flat out says "we don't know why this works" and doesn't try to dress it up in too much gobbledygook. Instead, rules are established about how the magic is used, and the author must stay within those rules. It's just like mystery writers faced with real-world technology that they don't understand can't make up magical and nonsensical rules about how to interact with it. (TV writers do that all the time, though, and I hate those shows.)

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snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

sordavie

I think this misses the point. Even if some parts of science fiction become true, it's still not the case that you believe those things are true prior to them becoming true. You don't believe that science fictions are accurate accounts of history. You don't believe predictions - you hope they might or might not come true. But you don't believe them.

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sordavie

I don't really know what it means to be spiritually "full." What does that mean? Can something make you spiritually full even if it's false? I mean, it may make you feel such, but are you really spiritually full? People who get sucked in to crazy cults and such say things like they feel spiritually full, but clearly they've been duped.

There must be something that you think is credible about Kabbalah over Scientology or whatever such that you feel studying one over the other gives you some insight in to spirituality or whatever.

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JWG

What is "correct" spirituality path then. Just because you don't find it agreeable doesn't mean others don't. It's one thing to spout off your knowledge, but it's entirely another to tell me what is correct and incorrect in the spiritual arena. Just like you have to stay healthy physically, mentally.. many people feel a need to fill a "gap".. spiritually. Either with Christianity, Islam, Judaism.. whatever. But for you to say what I choose to be interested in and read into "false".. is ridiculous. The only thing making ANY belief false is someones subjective opinion on it. I don't know what reality you're in, but just because something doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else.

You got a lot of nerve, sordavie. What is the "correct" path in life then for someone who enjoys entertaining the thought of spirituality, instead of putting down everyone elses?

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Obi

You believe in Kabbalah, Muslims believe the Qu'ran. Who's right? You can't both be right. Either one of you is right or you're both wrong. Although it's politically correct to say "Yay, each religion is great, pick what you want they're true if you want them to be true" it's really just a bit thoughtless. I am a big proponent of objective truth. Contradictory things can't both be true. If a religion or ideology says something about the universe it is either True or False.

I think Sordavie is trying to get you to give reasons why you believe Kabbalah to be true over any other world view.

alexandermottram

I watched the video, and as a physics masters student not philosophy are anything like that I can say this, most of what he said, to me, is just nonsensical sentences with no conceivable meaning. Also this whole "what is reality thing" is covered far better by just considering the philisophical nature of quantum physics which is one of the two most accurate models around at the moment. Anyway, I will write more later but I have to go to work now.

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Before you judge a man, try walking a mile in their shoes first. That way your a mile away and you have their shoes.

sordavie

If recognizing the fact that not everyone can be right is having a lot of nerve, then yes, I do have a lot of nerve. You won't find any post modern "everyone's right because I don't have enough nerve to say some people are wrong" relativism from me. And it's not just a mere opinion. There are very good reasons why relativism about truth is wrong - the very first being that it's a self-contradicting position. So, I have the nerve to think (justly) that some people are in fact wrong, and that I myself might possibly be wrong. I think that's an honest assessment the nature of human knowledge. Many people are just wrong. Making sure you're right is a hard job. One first has to admit the possibility of being wrong and then set out to prove that she or he isn't. I think having this kind of nerve is a virtue, not a vice. It is a vice to think that everyone is right in their own way and thus nobody has to make any effort to find out whether they are wrong.

What makes a belief false is that the belief doesn't correspond to the way reality is. What makes a belief true is that the belief does correspond to the way reality is. It's no different in the case of spiritual or religious beliefs.

It's highly strange that you on one hand choose to be interested in a thesis that proclaims there to be "secret" truths about reality that most people don't have access to, and on the other hand assert against me that the only thing that could make a belief false is someone's subjective opinion of it. Those two theses are in direct conflict with each other.

I don't know what a spiritual need is. But here are two possibilities:

1) We are partially incorporeal beings, and where we have physical needs - food, medicine, exercise, and what have you - we also have spiritual needs.

or

2) Spiritual needs are just psychological desires to believe in certain kinds of things.

If (2) is what spiritual needs are, then I grant that it doesn't matter what epistemic reasons you have for your beliefs. False beliefs can fulfill those desires just as well as true ones can. If it's just a desire to hold the belief, then it doesn't matter whether the beliefs are true or not. But on the other hand, if (2) is what spiritual needs are, then they are a very shallow kind of need, on the level of science fictional needs - the need to be entertained by reading science fiction and imagining such situations and stories.

If (1) is what spiritual needs are, then you had better have the right (read: true) account of what it is your needs are.

Compare this kind of "genuine" spiritual need to physical needs. We genuinely have physical needs. It's not just a matter of having a psychological desire to believe that our physical needs are met - we'd starve and die if we did just that. But with genuine physical needs, one has to be informed about what truly fulfills those needs. It's not a matter of mere opinion. Our bodies are made up in certain ways. There are certain things we physically need and certain things we don't. Many people get duped in to things that they don't need - things that don't actually fulfill their physical needs. You see them on late night informercials often (E.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_T..._to_Know_About). They are also called snake oil salesmen.

So if there really are such things as spiritual needs in the sense of (1), then it's your duty to figure out what really fulfills those needs. It's not the case that just any account of spirituality will do that.

I don't think you have (2) in mind. You may correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that you think there is more to the world than we can sense with our physical senses and we have genuine spiritual needs in the sense of (1). And that's why you like reading these kinds of accounts. But if that's so, then it's your duty to have good reasons to think that the account you commit to is correct - that is, is true and not false - just like it is your duty to find out whether a "natural cure" will fill a physical need you have instead of being a waste or harming you.

What do I think is the correct path to spirituality? I do think that some people have just a mere psychological need to believe in things bigger or outside of them. What is the correct path for them to fulfill their psychological need? I think they need some kind of counseling. Think Ed Norton in fight club who goes to support groups - it doesn't even matter what for - just to fulfill a psychological desire. He needs counseling for that. I think most people who approach spirituality do not approach it in the sense of (2).

But I take it what you're asking here is "what is the correct account of our spiritual needs in the sense of (1) and how to fill those needs." I think that there is no correct path. I think there are many good reasons to believe that we aren't incorporeal beings. I think there are very few good reasons to believe that we are incorporeal beings. When I weigh all the reasons, the score card comes out in favor of the thesis that there is no such thing as spirituality in the sense of (1). I'm not trying to get you to take my view. We could discuss them anyway, if you'd like. They are numerous and require good training in logic and reasoning to evaluate, and this is a thread about Kabbalah after all and not a thread about Sordavie's materialism. But the point is that I do have reasons to believe my view, and I've thought about my reasons critically. Sometimes I find out that one of my reasons is poor, and I drop it and reevaluate my position. Do you have reasons to believe your view? Have you ever thought about your view or your reasons critically?

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Switch

A public service message:
Please be careful when commenting on sori's posts. Especially with sarcasm.
This was the last person who challenged sori's argument and philosophy skills.

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|TG|Switch

Better known as:
That noob who crashed the chopper.
That noob who ran over the mine.
That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle.
That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...

alexandermottram

Right anyway, I was thinking about this during work. And the crutch of the matter in my view is this, they are saying that the world we live in may not be the one we see, hear etc... and that there maybe more dimensions/space/existences in which ethereal things/matter/objects/acts take place. They then say that you can only access this place by looking with what sounds to me like "the minds eye", and only your "minds eye" can interact with it.

First of all, lets have a look at how we act upon within the real/obvious world. If a tennis ball hits you in the face you will notice a few things, maybe first the sight of the ball flying towards you, then the sound of a thwak as it hits you in the face at the same time as feeling the pressure of the ball on your cheek bone, if your lucky you may even smell some of that green fuzz goodness from the said ball. So this action has been recorded on quite a few of your senses, and so as far as you care in the day to day sense, it is "real".

Now lets take an example of this "minds eye" interactions. Unfortunartly I become more vague here since I haven't opened myself up to it and my logic will ensue why later. Some matter or energy or principle in this new "dimension/existence" hits you. Your mind's eye sees it, but no other sense in your body feels it. It has technically happened yes, just it can be only recorded on this new sense that allows you to access this separate place. So you could say yes i believe in this new place and my new ability to observe it, except for one little thing. Last night I was in bed imagining what it would be like to Zooey Deschanel, and it was quite a cool day dream, and it made me happy for a while. Wait a second this sounds a little bit like a less drugged up psychedelic philosophical version of this whole opening up your mind to something that you can sense normally. So in my opinion its all just pure imagination.

(Maybe I miss understood the concept it was trying to put forth, but this is how I see it).

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Before you judge a man, try walking a mile in their shoes first. That way your a mile away and you have their shoes.

sordavie

Zooey Deschanel is so hot.

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ScratchMonkey

http://images.google.com/images?q=Zooey+Deschanel
http://googlecashtip34.blogspot.com/...wallpaper.html

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snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."

alexandermottram

I'm appalled at you two, I give some reasoning on what I believe the state of reality is and all you get out of it is Zooey Deschanel. Hahaha, I will have to use attractive girls in explaining theories or physics more often.

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Before you judge a man, try walking a mile in their shoes first. That way your a mile away and you have their shoes.

ScratchMonkey

When I have to choose whether to wrap my mind around a tricky philosophical concept or a cute woman, I know which I'm gonna choose!

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snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."

Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."