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07-27-2009, 03:15 PM #46
Re: Perceiving Reality
I think people believe those things are possible or achievable. If you don't believe them, those fictional possibilities, why would anyone put any effort into achieving them?
For many humans I don't think there is a big difference between "It is true now" and "It is possible". Possibility is reality.
Then there is the whole time dimension. If it does exist in the future it is true. We just haven't gotten there yet.I’m not racists, I have republican friends. Radio show host.
- "The essence of tyranny is the denial of complexity". -Jacob Burkhardt
- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Emerson
- "People should not be afraid of it's government, government should be afraid of it's People." - Line from V for Vendetta
- If software were as unreliable as economic theory, there wouldn't be a plane made of anything other than paper that could get off the ground. Jim Fawcette
- "Let me now state what seems to me the decisive objection to any conservatism which deserves to be called such. It is that by its very nature it cannot offer an alternative to the direction in which we are moving." -Friedrich Hayek
- "Don't waist your time on me your already the voice inside my head." Blink 182 to my wife
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07-27-2009, 03:33 PM #47
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Re: Perceiving Reality
There's a difference in believing that something is possible and that something is true. "It's possible that swans evolved to have blue feathers." I believe that statement. "Swans have blue feathers." I don't believe this latter statement. 'It is possible that swans have blue feathers' and 'swans have blue feathers' do not express the same proposition.
In propositional logic, the distinction between these two kinds of statements is shown with the possibility operator: <> (the symbol is a diamond). Atomic statements are given capital, middle of the alphabet letters like P, Q, R. Atomic statements are the most basic sentences that come in the language (think subject and predicate and nothing else). Here are some examples: "The swan is blue" "The ball is red" "El_Gringo is from OK." To these basic atomic statements various connectors and operators may be used to modify what's expressed.
Negation, like our diamond, is a sentential operator for instance, and is usually expressed as a tilde in symbolic form: ~. Negation, placed in front of a statement gives us a statement with the "opposite" truth value. For instance, "~The swan is blue" expresses that the swan is blue is false. "~El_Gringo is from OK" expresses that it is false that El_Gringo is from OK." We all understand that to believe that "El_Gringo is from OK" is not the same as to believe that "~El_Gringo is from OK." Indeed, holding both of those believes is contradictory. So, "~P" has the opposite truth value of "P". Negation is a truth value modifying operator. Moral of this story, don't mistake a statement for what gets expressed by that same statement modified by a sentential operator.
Our <> is also a sentential operator. It modifies whether the statement is about the actual world or about a possible world. "Possibly El_Gringo is from OK" does not express the same thing as "El_Gringo is from OK." What it expresses is that there is some possible way reality could have gone such that El_Gringo is from OK." Notice that "<> P" (Read: possibly P) does not imply "P", although the reverse holds. That it's possible for Sordavie to be ruler of the universe does not entail that it's actually the case that Sordavie is the ruler of the universe. Our language is filled with words to help distinguish the hypothetical from the actual. For instance, we have all kinds of conditional statements (if.. then; if it were... then it would be...). Words like 'can', 'ability', 'achievable', 'could be' all distinguish between actuality and some kind of possibility. People who don't think there's a big difference between P is true and P is possibly true are unfortunately mistaken, and they haven't thought hard enough about the distinction between possibility and actuality.
Believing that things in stories are possible or achievable is quite different than believing a particular account of spirituality. It's not that you're to believe that this particular account of spirituality is possible or achievable. The latter is more akin to believing a scientific theory. There's no amount of believing that a scientific theory is possibly true or achievable such that you can make it true, if you try hard enough. It's either an accurate account of how the physical laws work or it is not. An account of spirituality likewise is either an accurate account of how the spiritual reality is like or it is not. So, I still think this misses the point.
By the way, this is the topic of my dissertation. Since, ostensibly, what makes statements about a possibilities true or false isn't the way the actual world is, the question is what makes such statements true. Should we countenance mere possibilities in our ontology? Are such statements meaningless? Do they mean something other than we thought they meant? I survey various answers in the literature and argue for what I think is the best answer.Last edited by sordavie; 07-27-2009 at 04:04 PM. Reason: typo
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07-27-2009, 07:46 PM #48
Re: Perceiving Reality
Hmmm, let me say you may want to consider this. Science fiction normally exaggerates current science technologies past what is currently achievable. For example, the war of the worlds was written just after the discovery of coherent light sources (LASER), and scifi said these lasers could vaporise material, which in truth they can, just the amount of energy required is so unreasonable they can only be run for very short amounts of time. So scifi technology normally reflects poorly current science with out realising the moments limiting factors of power or accuracy.
Before you judge a man, try walking a mile in their shoes first. That way your a mile away and you have their shoes.
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07-28-2009, 04:04 AM #49
Re: Perceiving Reality
There are two essentially different kinds of science fiction: Extrapolative fiction that a person with some science or engineering background writes, and "soft" SF, in which the writer knows less the technology as I know about cellular biology. (Not much!) The latter is almost always impossible, but is the most frequently seen in visual media (movies and TV). My preference is strongly for the former.
Hand-held laser guns are something I place strongly in the latter category. Ray guns predated the LASER, and non-technical writers just latched onto the pop science in the Sunday paper to justify their fantasies, much in the way comic book writers use mutation to justify superheroes. (When I go to see "SF" in the movies or on TV, I check my brain at the door. Otherwise they'd drag me away for throwing furniture through the screen.)Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."
Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."
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07-28-2009, 06:47 AM #50
Re: Perceiving Reality
Sorry, I think you under estimate the current power of science today, I go to Imperial College which is the fifth best research institute in the world. I have seen with my own eyes things that you would call impossible, they are not impossible but impractical. Some examples of what I have seen.
Number; Sci-fi name; Actual Name; Technology and CURRENT limitations
1. An invisibility cloak;
metamaterials with negative refraction
I have seen the lab report on a cylinder that could make objects inside it invisible to specific wavelengths of light by refracting em waves around them. I have also found papers from Berkley by a guy named Xiang Zhang that worked on 3D objects, but only for a small spectrum of EM waves. The limitations are that either it either only works for cylindrical objects, or if it works in 3D then it only works for a small range of wavelengths.
2. Ray guns, laser guns;
Lasers or Masers;
Although since the only lasers you have ever seen are most probably capable of at most popping a balloon but in some steel factories they use them to cut through the thick steel. The power consumption is quite large though and since most decent battery patents have been bought up by oil companies, there isn't the technology to make a portable version that wouldn't over hear or explode to easily.
Got to go and have a band practice, I will do more later.Before you judge a man, try walking a mile in their shoes first. That way your a mile away and you have their shoes.
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07-28-2009, 10:02 AM #51
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Re: Perceiving Reality
Or you've underestimated what kinds of things soft sci-fi writers have come up with.
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07-28-2009, 12:31 PM #52
Re: Perceiving Reality
Haha, well I class science fiction as different to crappy novels. Scifi for me is star trek, Barry E Woodham, maybe even good old Douglas Adams. I'm not talking about Transformers with their sentient steel based life forms and piece of metal that makes your fridge become quite unreasonable to live with. I can't say that everything in science fiction will come true but I have seen some things that I thought near impossible for example two of my friends created a wireless energy transfer device, just science needs a lot of fine tuning before it can be technology.
Oww, i thought of another good example of scifi technology.
3. Artificial Gravity;
Centrifugal force;
Space stations rotating in space cause a centripetal force on any objects with in them rotating at the same speed. This means that the objects can experience a centrifugal force, which if you adjust the speed of rotation just right (9.8 revolutions per second i think) will simulate gravity (best to have a cylindrical room though).Before you judge a man, try walking a mile in their shoes first. That way your a mile away and you have their shoes.
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07-28-2009, 02:03 PM #53
Re: Perceiving Reality
I must say this thread has been very enlightening and interesting to read. Keep going guys.
|TG-Irr| JWG
Battlefield 2 - Project Reality

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07-28-2009, 02:47 PM #54
Re: Perceiving Reality
I would just like to announce I am a proud Pastafarian. You must Perceive Hunger of His noodley appendage.
|TG-Irr| JWG
Battlefield 2 - Project Reality

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07-28-2009, 03:57 PM #55
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Re: Perceiving Reality
But Transformers is sci fi. Terminator is sci fi. Again there are many genres within sci fi.
What does this have to do with anything going on in the thread anyway?
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07-28-2009, 07:48 PM #56
Re: Perceiving Reality
Yep I suppose. Being no expert in Science Fiction I raid the arch of all knowledge both accurate and fallacy wikipedia. The some of the quote there would differentiate transformers from science fiction, though maybe not terminator (Rod Serling's definition is "fantasy is the impossible made probable. Science Fiction is the improbable made possible."). But then again probable is only a subjective word, so transformers may not be impossible though sentient robots are far from anything I have ever seen, the most impressive being ones that learnt from detecting colours off blocks with only the most basic of programming and then learning from this which they "liked" and "disliked". So the only cop out I can come up with, is hard core science fiction, not main stream media driven science fiction has it's bases in science, otherwise it would be pure fantasy.But Transformers is sci fi. Terminator is sci fi. Again there are many genres within sci fi.
Sod all really.What does this have to do with anything going on in the thread anyway?Before you judge a man, try walking a mile in their shoes first. That way your a mile away and you have their shoes.
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07-29-2009, 04:29 AM #57
Re: Perceiving Reality
Those of us who read science fiction (or SF for short) long ago used the term "scifi" as a derogatory term to mean crap that has the trappings of SF (space ships, ray guns) but makes no attempt to extrapolate from current technology and usually avoids any connection with real engineering. Trek is scifi. It's almost religious scifi, because people try to take new developments in science and force them into Trek terms to claim that Trek predicted them. A bit like Nostradamus nuts.
I enjoy Trek. But as fantasy, not SF. Trek's biggest contribution to science is inspiring youngsters to go pursue the real thing, and in inspiring packaging for science, such as medical gizmos and Bluetooth. (One of the few cases where it was highly predictive was in light speed communications packaging.)
If you want real SF, go for Jerry Pournelle or Robert Forward.Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."
Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."
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07-29-2009, 12:03 PM #58
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07-29-2009, 12:30 PM #59
Re: Perceiving Reality
It's been a looooong time since I read any of Asimov's fiction, so I can't really judge. I recall he was of the "Golden Age" and hence likely considered "hard SF" for that period. You might want to look at this article for a description of the range of SF:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_fiction
A list of sub-genres can be found in the main article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fiction
Curiously, Asimov isn't listed under the sub-genre section but is mentioned multiple times elsewhere. My own memory of him was as a great science popularizer, and I looked forward to his editorials and loved his autobiography.Dude, seriously, WHAT handkerchief?
snooggums' density principal: "The more dense a population, the more dense a population."
Iliana: "You're a great friend but if we're ever chased by zombies I'm tripping you."
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