Manny

Right, Forgot Why i came in here in the first place.
Kill lots more bosses this week I won't be able to attend, since I'm moving out today, and won't have internet till later this week. *shudder*

I'm going to need ALOT of books.

Keep up the good work while i'm gone!

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Gaiaghost07

Yes the kill went very smoothly--Let's keep the good work up fellas--Also This Wednesday/Thursday I am TRYING to take off Paid--so i would like to raid those nights--wont know til tonight though, but gonna go ahead and post about it cause i know some people read these

Anywho--I noticed a lot of misses

Not to pick on, but just to point out, drew had like a 20+% miss rate with a lot of his stuff, We can try to fix that with some of his sockets etc, those misses count!

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70 Feral Druid: Gaiaghost
70 Fire Mage: Nalfein
70 Frost Mage: Redazan
70 Arms/Fury Warrior: Drantor
70 Beast M. Hunter: Brualst
70 Holy Paladin: Valgar
63 Master M.Hunter: Drizztnguen
60 Combat Rogue: Slyone
...and many more

Gaviin

Wait... 20%? On a druid? How is that even possible?

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70 Ninja

Arkamis

That's not uncommon, because that miss includes bosses' abilities to dodge and parry. For example: http://wowwebstats.com/6sbvgyqgkjmjy?s=5710-5925&a=19

Hit rating helps a lot to increase TPS, but expertise is better, because not only does expertise increase your TPS, it reduces your incoming damage.

Gaiaghost07

Well, heres the thing--he has to have low +hit--and we were killin Tidewalker(for example)--i know he wasnt tanking -so his miss shouldn't have been that low...nearly that low...

Ya, so like--his shreds alone(Main offensive attack--or should have been, but i guess he mangle'd more) missed 25.9% of the time--thats a LOT of misses

We should help him get some new gems--that was just one thing i noticed, i didnt check casters for resists yet--but i will monday

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70 Feral Druid: Gaiaghost
70 Fire Mage: Nalfein
70 Frost Mage: Redazan
70 Arms/Fury Warrior: Drantor
70 Beast M. Hunter: Brualst
70 Holy Paladin: Valgar
63 Master M.Hunter: Drizztnguen
60 Combat Rogue: Slyone
...and many more

Arkamis

25.9% seems like a lot, but when you break down the columns, of those misses 7 were true misses, and 7 were dodges.

So if you rule out the dodges, it was only 12.95% miss, which is in line with his other abilities. It's still on the high side, but in the end it's not really that huge of a deal. Some hit rating will help the bottom line, but overall I wouldn't sacrifice too much AP for it.

Gaviin

Ark, I was referring only to misses. I understand the numbers change when you add dodges/parries into the mix.

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70 Ninja

Arkamis

Yeah but gaia was referring to a 20%+ miss rate, but when looking at it, it acutally boils down closer to 11%.

Gaiaghost07

Yes and We understand your point--but look at my numbers as well, cause i dont think i noticed how to boil down to see misses due to dodge etc--and i am pretty sure + hit kinda factors into HOW often we druids white crit hits--its rumoring to be floating around the boards and forumns--now i dont know how this is possible, but a druids hit is 142 needed--when i put on 200, my meters and everything register more crits, only thing i can think of is its the fact that this rumor may be true--when i broke it down, my crits were more often, so as it is true--its like defense, the more you have--the better chance your gonna block(<==Druids cant==>)parry/dodge, even passed the cap--it still helps

Just pointing it out was all, with a bit of plus hit--he is not the only one, we get all of us hitting the numbers we need, that COULD very well remove 30 seconds from the fight that we would have had to do, or more--you understand right?

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70 Feral Druid: Gaiaghost
70 Fire Mage: Nalfein
70 Frost Mage: Redazan
70 Arms/Fury Warrior: Drantor
70 Beast M. Hunter: Brualst
70 Holy Paladin: Valgar
63 Master M.Hunter: Drizztnguen
60 Combat Rogue: Slyone
...and many more

Sajier

If you click on the particular attack it will open it up and show you dodges/parries/misses.

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Sajier/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Shadow Priest and BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

TG WoW Home Page | TG Required Reading | The Irregulars | Irregulars Forum

Gaviin

Hmm, Ghost, I don't think that's exactly right. I haven't looked at the numbers, so perhaps there's some hidden mechanic whereby if you pass your hit cap you somehow get more crits, but that's certainly not the way it's supposed to work (and I've never heard of that theory). It's different from defense because defense has many different beneficial facets. In addition to reducing the chance that you'll be crit'ed, it increases your chance to dodge/block/parry. The defense "cap" only indicates the point at which you can't be crit'ed; past that, you still gain more benefits of the increased avoidance. That mechanic is well-understood and documented.

With hit rating, it's different. Once you reach the cap, that's it. There's a set chance that your attacks will miss, and once you get enough +hit to overcome that, there's no further benefit. Again, there may be some hidden mechanic, but at least on the surface, it's not the same sort of thing as defense. If your damage numbers indicate added benefit to going above the hit cap, I'd be very interested in figuring out why.

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70 Ninja

orion808

I think what you've heard is that as you increase your +hit, your chance to crit is also increased. This is due to those previous misses turning into hits, which have a chance to crit.

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Aeryck

Everything I've read about melee combat suggests this is not the case. Supposedly, it is a one roll system and the "you can't crit what you can't hit" idea is completely untrue. Each stat has a certain percent. You can reach the hit cap and the expertise cap and essentially never miss a melee attack, but your crit chance will still be whatever is indicated under your combat stats.

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Aegyn

Yeah Aeryk, you're talking about hit table mechanics. The statement that you have a chance to crit only on what you hit with is based on the idea that the hit table is two tiered. Or, to put it another way, that crit has an "if" mechanic. I.E. If a character has let's say 30% chance to hit, and a 25% chance to crit. Then the character has a chance to hit, it calculates whether the hit was a crit by rolling on the 25%. This is not how the hit table works.
The hit table works more or less like this: each time you swing at a mob, it rolls on a single table that contains chance to hit, crit, dodge, miss, parry, or block. All these values are on the same table, and all have a chance to happen (under certain circumstances like being behind the mob will eliminate block or parry from the table) for each swing. For example, using the numbers from before the table would look something like:

30% hit
25% crit
5% miss
15% dodge
15% parry
10% block

The reason why tanks get def up to a certain point is to eliminate that crit chance from the attack table mobs use against them.

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Aestryd 70 Prot Pally
Epimetheus 70 Feral Druid
Yuusei 70 Enhancement Shaman
Aegyn 70 Holy Priest
Shyff 70 Arcane Mage

"The real-life equivalent of WoW tanking is to pick a fight with a rabid pedophilic cannibal and try to keep his attention while a pack of first-graders stab him to death with a spork."

Arkamis

You are correct in practice and incorrect in pure theory.

Let's say that you could, somehow, manage to get 95% crit chance through gear, buffs, w/e. Actually, this wouldn't be out of the question on say, Loatheb.

Now, would you crit 95% of your outgoing swings? No. Because some would miss.

Now, this is not really a good example. Under traditional circumstances you can't get inflated numbers like that. Crit is a funny thing. You'll see different numbers for yellow and white damage. The reason is white attacks can be glancing blows. I think it's 28%, but I'd have to reference that number. So the outgoing attack table is going to look like:

Miss | Dodge | Parry | Glancing | Normal | Crit

As with incoming melee swings, the table is built from the left and shrunk from the right. Hit rating will reduce the size of the Miss segment of the table. Expertise will reduce Dodge and Parry. Nothing will reduce glancing.

Now, let's say you bring your Miss, Dodge and Parry down to 2% chance each (for simplicity). And let's say you stack your crit a lot, somehow, so effectively your normal attack segment is shrunk from the right. You can't push your crit so far that it goes into glancing. There's an absolute limit on that.

Yellow damage is different, so you're going to see different numbers on your crits for say, Sin Strike or Slam. Similarly, the hit cap for specials is lower.

This is, at least, the current theory on how the outgoing table works. For all intents and purposes, if you do a lengthy study on several thousand swings, you should converge to your paperdoll stats.