Wintrow

***DRAFT***DRAFT***DRAFT***DRAFT***

Objectives
The spirit of this loot distribution methodology is fairly simple:

• To drive equal distribution of upgrades throughout the group
• To reward individuals who regularly contribute to successful raids
• To drive thoughtful consideration by individuals of desired upgrades
• To minimize the complexity of the system and its administration

Resurgent leadership reserves the right to modify this process to better meet these objectives or if individuals are perceived to be abusing unforeseen loopholes that contradict these objectives.


Basic Rules
Each item looted in a raid instance will have a DKP value assigned to it. More on this below.

When an item is awarded to an individual, that individual “purchases” the item by paying the DKP value of the item from their DKP pool.

The total DKP value from loot obtained off a boss will be divided by the number of individuals that participated in the attempt in which the boss was defeated, including the individual(s) who purchased said loot. This amount will be awarded to the DKP pool of each of those individuals.

No DKP will be awarded for items that are disenchanted.

All DKP precision will be to the hundredths.


Loot Distribution
Prioritization
Each item that can be purchased using DKP will have a designated class/spec “priority”. Regardless of current levels of DKP, only those classes and specs that have priority on the item will be permitted to purchase that item. If all individuals with priority pass on the item, then it is open for purchase by anyone (more details follow).

Using appropriate consultation where necessary, Resurgent leaders will designate class & spec priorities for all loot in a raid instance. These lists will be posted in the forums for all Resurgent members to suggest additions or subtractions before being finalized; Resurgent leaders will make the final determinations after considering all feedback. As deemed necessary, adjustments to priority can be made after the list is “finalized” if omissions are noted at a later date.

The concept of prioritization is not meant to assign which item is “best” for which class. In other words, we won’t be making decisions that item X is mage gear and preventing warlocks from rolling on it as well.

Logistics
The individual with the highest current DKP pool at the beginning of a raid will have the right to purchase or pass on a priority item. If that individual passes, the individual with the next highest DKP pool will have the right to purchase or pass, and so on. It is expected that individuals do not consistently pass on upgrades to stockpile DKP for future item purchases; reasonable passing practice will be acceptable.

Items that are generally considered to be off-spec, side-grades or specialty sets (e.g. block set, haste set, etc) can be purchased for ½ the item’s normal DKP value, only if all individuals with priority to purchase the item pass on it. Items purchased in this manner will likewise result in ½ the normal DKP being awarded to individual raid members. Again, perceived collusion or abuse of this rule to purchase items at lower costs will not be tolerated.

In general, individuals will only be permitted to purchase one priority item and one non-priority item per raid week.

No item will opened up to non-priority individuals for purchase as long as there is an individual with priority willing to purchase it. Likewise, no item will be DE’d as long as there is an individual willing to purchase it.

In cases where multiple individuals have the same current level of DKP, /roll 100 will be used to determine who is permitted to purchase the item.


DKP Values
The DKP value of an item will be calculated using the item level (e.g. 213 for most heroic Naxx items) multiplied by one or more coefficients. Therefore, DKP will scale as we progress through advanced content, rewarding (and costing) more DKP for more advanced instances.

Item coefficients are as follows:

• Primary Slot (Head, Shoulder, Chest, Hands, Legs) -> 1.0
• Secondary Slot (Wrist, Waist, Feet) -> 0.9
• Tertiary Slot (Neck, Back, Finger, Trinket) -> 0.75
• Weapon Slot (1H, Shield, Off-hand, Ranged, Wand, Totem, Libram, Idol) -> 0.9
• 2H Weapon Slot (2H) -> 1.8
• Special Items (Mounts, Companions, etc) -> 1.0
• Tier Tokens -> 1.5 (applied in addition to the slot coefficient)
• Legendary -> 2.0 (applied in addition to the slot coefficient)

Examples and formulas:
[item]Angry Dread[/item] = ilvl * Weapon Slot = 213 * 0.9 = 191.7
[item]Bands of Impurity[/item] = ilvl * Secondary Slot = 213 * 0.9 = 191.7
[item]Chestguard of the Lost Conqueror[/item] = ilvl * Primary Slot * Tier Token = 213 * 1.0 * 1.5 = 319.5
[item]Warglaive of Azzinoth[/item] = ilvl * Weapon Slot * Legendary = 156 * 0.9 * 2.0 = 280.8

Boss/trash drops categorized as “crafting materials” (e.g. epic gems, [item]Heart of Darkness[/item], [item]Nether Vortex[/item], [item]Sunmote[/item], etc) will continue to be collected and stored centrally in the Resurgent bank. These items will not cost or earn DKP for the raid. Requests for these items will follow separate processes to be defined as needed. For the purposes of this rule, “crafting materials” are limited to non-soulbound items; if BoP materials are looted, they will be assigned a DKP value and priority and purchased normally.

Crafting patterns for BoE items will continue to be allocated to a designated guild crafter first. If the designated guild crafter already has a pattern, other crafters participating in the raid are eligible to roll for the pattern. No DKP will be deducted or earned for these items.

Special items that drop will be assigned their own DKP values by Resurgent leaders. Special items would include, but not be limited to, rare mounts or companions.

DKP values for trash drops will be subject to the same rules as boss loot items and DKP will be awarded/deducted accordingly.


Earning DKP
Generally, the only way to earn DKP is for other members of the raid to purchase items. This means the more we loot as a group, the more DKP will be earned. Below are two additional methods by which we will earn DKP.

Learning DKP
DKP will be awarded for efforts learning the strategies on new bosses each raid until that boss is defeated. The total DKP value to be divided will be approximated based on the available drops from that boss. This value will be divided by the total number of members who participated in the learning attempts and ¼ of that amount will be awarded as DKP.

If a boss is defeated, no learning DKP will be awarded for that boss for that raid.

Once a boss has been defeated, no learning DKP will be awarded for that boss on subsequent raid nights.

Bench DKP
Individuals who are available to raid but are asked to sit out because the raid is full will be awarded ¼ of the DKP awarded throughout that raid. In order to receive this DKP, the individual must remain available for the entire raid.


DKP Deductions
Generally, the only way to lose DKP is by purchasing items that drop in a raid.

One-time deductions to an individual’s DKP will be considered in response to behavior that is perceived by Resurgent leaders to be detrimental to the objectives of Resurgent. Such behavior might include, but not be limited to:

• Not showing up to a raid for which you’ve signed up
• Unexplained early departure from a raid
• Disruptive behavior before, during or after a raid
• Consistent sub-par performance
• Failure to read posted boss strategies
• Failure to come to a raid fully prepared

The amount of DKP deducted will be at the discretion of the Resurgent leaders and will depend on the perceived severity of the offense.

Penalties will be assessed sparingly and will always be accompanied with an explanation to the individual being penalized.


For New Resurgent Members (WotLK)
To help avoid a large number of individuals sitting with negative DKP, all individuals raiding with Resurgent will initially be credited with 250 DKP. This is a one-time credit.

To acknowledge past efforts, individuals having made significant contribution to Resurgent’s BC raiding will be credited up to an additional 100 DKP. This is a one-time credit and is wholly at the discretion of Resurgent leaders.

Although all individuals participating in a raid will accrue DKP as it is earned, you must have participated in 5 full raids with Resurgent before you are able to purchase priority or non-priority items that other members want to purchase.


Miscellaneous Caveats
In the interest of keeping our raids progressing with minimal interruption, DKP will only be updated at the end of the raid.

Resurgent leaders reserve the right to suspend DKP rules for certain raids and award/charge flat rates of DKP (or no DKP) if deemed necessary. This would primarily be used for non-standard raid activities (e.g. spending an evening running an old world raid or a “lesser” instance that will provide few upgrades).

Resurgent leaders reserve the right to temporarily suspend or revise DKP rules at any time to help ensure loot distribution remains in the best interest of Resurgent and the guild as a whole.

If a raid must be cancelled before it begins, no DKP will be awarded. Depending on the reason for cancellation, DKP penalties may be assessed (e.g. to no-shows who contributed to the cancellation). No penalties will be assessed to individuals who simply can not attend a raid and note as such on their sign-up. Last minute cancellations, even those done via the sign-up site, may be assessed a penalty under certain limited circumstances.

It is expected that members participate for the entirety of a scheduled raid in order to receive DKP of any kind. Leaving early or arriving late and the impact on DKP received will be addressed by Resurgent leaders on a case-by-case basis. Options for dealing with these situations include, but are not limited to: assessing one-time DKP penalties, revoking all DKP earned that raid or taking no action at all.

__________________
70 Priest

Wintrow

Please post any comments/questions/suggestions to the above draft methodology. We will provide any clarifications that may be needed and make revisions if warranted.

In approximately one week, I will post the finalized rules.

Information on the tools to be used to manage this process will be forthcoming; we're still experimenting...

__________________
70 Priest

BigSlick

I was vaguely familiar with the concept of DKP, and this helps clear it up a lot - thanks. Seems like a fair system, and will negate the hot- and cold-streaks of luck with the RNG.

Two questions:

Is negative DKP status possible (i.e., if I have 140 DKP and wish to purchase an item costing 180 DKP, and am the next eligible purchaser)?

How will we publish/share/track DKP standings (via in-game mods, on forums, etc)?

__________________

orion808

We're still working on the implementation. At the moment, it might be an in-game addon used by the leaders along with a website designed to allow easy viewing.This can easily change.

__________________

Sajier

How will DKP bloat be dealt with?

For example, if we are in need of a new healer, but all the other healers already have banked 1000 DKP, it becomes very hard for the new person to ever receive an item that is new and desirable, they are always left with leftovers and doesn't bring the new person up to snuff faster to make them more useful to the group, even if they are raiding every single day. This sort of situation could make recruitment of new members harder.

In addition, a mod that shows our DKP prices on items in game would be greatly appreciated, if the leaders have already seen something.

__________________
Sajaman/|TG-Irr|Sajier - WoW Resto Shaman, BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic

TG WoW Home Page | TG Required Reading | The Irregulars | Irregulars Forum

Pistos

Looks good. Thanks for being proactive on this. Nice to have a good plan in place before we get started.

I have a couple of thoughts/questions:

1) Bench DKP - Its just opinion, but I think 1/2 DKP would be a better number than 1/4 for those that are willing to sit out and be online and available.

2) In order to combat bloat what about having each tier of raid have its own DKP? Would it be too hard to maintain? Perhaps have all active Resurgent members at the time get some percentage of their DKP to start with at the time the next tier is started? For BC if a person had 1000 dkp from SSC/TK when we were starting MH then they would keep the 1000 for Tier 5 and start with 25% * 1000 dkp = 250 dkp for Tier 6.

__________________
Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
...and other distractions of various levels.

Wintrow

Negative DKP is possible and doesn't alter your chances of purchasing items in the future. -50 DKP would have first rights to an item over -100 DKP. This does reach a point of being comical and we would like to avoid a majority of folks with negative balances. This is something that we'll have to watch play out over time...

Raid leaders will likely use an in-game mod to facilitate this process. Some mods even allow whispers to the raid leader to retrieve your current DKP a la that jewelcrafting addon. The tracking will likely involve a website that will be linked into our raid site. Again, more to come on this aspect.

__________________
70 Priest

shirokuma

Here are a couple of things that I have been thinking. We have done this pre BC and I like it.
Personally I think it is wrong to offer 0 dkp for things that are chanted here is why. If someone is not in the start of the raid (when we start doing the zone) but come later there is a higher chance of coming out with 0 dkp because no one would be rolling on things anymore, so if you start late and roll on things it makes it WAY harder for you to get out of that hole. As well the chant mats will be used for someone/something so some kind of dkp should be offered for de'd items.

I also agree with P is that it is harsh for the benched people. 1/2 or more should be offered. The reason being is that person was signed up, that person was there on time and ready to go. Just because there are more people that needed that person should not be penalized that much. There should have to be on line and be available to receive that dkp.

I agree with P in the sense that dkp can't be transferable. A certain % can and the reason being is it gives an even playing field for new people joining the raid to old people. Personally I think DKP is an ok as long as it is fair.

Vinzalf

Mah Babeh!

Just two concerns, that have already been mentioned.

1.) DE stuff, Since I'd like to think we'll be progressing hard through Naxx/EoE/Obsidium, and with the pure randomness of drops, it's going to suck only getting 1-2 drops total. Now I see both ends of the issue, you can't give stuff out for free, without the same sort of resentment, nor can you stray from the primary rules in the dkp system, which is what when I had to do it, held the most challenge because people wanted more pie!

2.) And this can be made worse with the above issue, standby's get 1/4 of what everyone else gets? First off, if this is a Zero-Sum system as it appears to be... you'll either have to spend the time to make sure everyone gets the same sized piece, as well as the standbys get the 1/4 of the standard piece, for that particular raid.
Something like

(numberofraiders)x + (numberonbench)y = (value of raid items)
y = (.25)x
So with a raid value of 350, and 25 raiders, 6 on standby
(25)x + (6)y = 350
(25)x + (1.5)x = 350
(26.5)x = 350
x = 13.21
y= 3.3

3.3 compared to 13.21 for something that I'd have preferred not to do but up until that point, hadn't know that's what I'd be doing..

Compare that to
(numberofraiders + numberonbench)x = (value of raid items)
(31)x = 350
x = 11.29

To me, it just seems like a lot of extra worth with very little benefit for doing so. I mean, gaining 1.92 to the others who we invite don't get 7.99 seems a little elitist.

Being on standby sucks. I don't like alts, I don't like logging at an instance and sitting around doing nothing. 1/4 DKP isn't enough to change my opinion on that. Even if I did do alts, standing by to jump on a whim sucks because you can't really do much but quest.
Being on standby isn't always the players fault, and the crumbs that float down make it feel worse. Following your rules of needing to be available the entire time, I don't see why they shouldn't be rewarded fully for that... Easier to manage, and especially in the learning stages of the fights, you're not automatically skewing the DKP tables for a single set of players.

__________________
RAWGRLRLRLRRLGLRL!!!

Nations are like individuals: they achieve more when they plan to plant a tiny tree, and do it, than when they propose to raise an entire forest and then fall asleep in the furrows.

I AM socializing artard, I'm logged on to an MMORPG with people from all over the world and getting XP with my party using Teamspeak

Gaze

Generally looks good.

1. I'm apposed to the 1/4 benched DKP. In my opinion if we are asked to sit because of class balance and we stay on-line as "stand by" for the entire raid we should get 100% DKP. After all its not my fault we have a surplus of my class and I shouldn't be punished further. Conversely if I am asked to sit and decide to log off to to enjoy RL I should be awarded the 1/4.

2. What are we doing with our old world DKP? I think it should be incorporated into this system.

__________________
"Uhhhh.... Try this HOT and let me know how it goes."

orion808

Pretty sure I can speak on the old world DKP without consulting Gaviin/Wintrow. We will not be incorporating "Old World" DKP mainly because the systems don't match and it was so long ago.

We will be adding the buffer to those that have been in Resurgent through TBC as a thank you for your loyalty.

We will have to consult on "bench" DKP. The more DKP we award to those on the bench, the more the system slides away from ZeroSum. This leads to "bloat" and could lead to issues like Sajier mentioned earlier such as difficulty recruiting. This is because of the raising baseline, which should be zero in a ZeroSum system. We are already inflating it by giving the "loyalty" DKP because we are afraid of seeing negative numbers.

Traditionally, a ZeroSum system works well because new players start at zero, as such, they start in the middle. Players that have run a couple raids, will have more DKP than them, but will most likely spend their DKP and go negative. This allows the new players to be able to purchase something, but after the earlier raiders. The more you raid, the quicker you get "out of the hole" and can again spend DKP. Now, obviously we are not truely ZeroSum, and as such, we might have to give new recruits a starting DKP higher than zero so they can be competitive.

__________________

Gaiaghost07

Well, I guess I will have to be the first party-crasher here. I have never liked DKP systems for a pretty simple reason, it separates a Hardcore Raider, from the Casual, in an off-balance standard.


Casual-Raider; CR
Hardcore-Raider; HR
Win-By-Default; WBD
Your CR won't see the loot the HC raiders will for quite some time usually, as well as taking the chance as the group moving on as a whole to the next tier set in dungeons, meanwhile your CR needs several upgrades from where everyone else has fished it out.

I don't wanna use me as an example here, but its the easiest I've got, someone else may not say it, and I know there are several others in my boat, which is why they probably weren't in Resurgent to begin with TBC wise; Couldn't make the raids...

The DKP system will put me out of roll range really quickly considering many casters have "Shared" loot tables, dps/healer wise.

I can always attend Sundays, would never miss one if I were to be signing up(As I have for our first run) Thereafter, there are 3 more days roughly that you guys will be raiding; I understand people will be winning/spending DKP through those days. However, that does put a wall up for me as far as I am understanding like this; Those who didn't win will be a WBD over me for sure having far more DKP than me, that and the boss/s I may want/need something off of could very well already be dead...making Sundays a day of "Well I hope they didn't kill this boss, then I hope I can roll, if the item even drops"

Yes its not so drastic in most peoples cases, but in my case specifically, that's where I fall. I don't disagree with a DKP system, it just "Favors" your HR > CR. That can cause people to not even wanna go, I go for the fun and the fight, but i'd like to win some loot on a decently" Regular" basis. I'd be stuck with slim pickings or waiting until I WBD...which is absolutely boring and disappointing.

By all means I wish to further elaborate and discuss how this might be resolved or "Remedied" to allow others who can't raid all the time, to still see some of the appreciation of it as well...

Once again, I'm not against it;But I know my point is understood here...

--Ghost

__________________
Doomkin...Tree...or Bear. If your not the above, your not cool! *Note* Alts don't count....

Wintrow

We have found an in game mod that will serve this purpose. It leverages a similar DKP calculation method to that which I detailed above, though the coefficients differ. Conceptually, DKP is still based on item level multiplied by a slot coefficient. The addon does not include a "premium" for Tier Tokens, but does provide a mechanism for us to override the default values for those pieces with our own; we decided to start with a coefficient of 1.3 for Tier Tokens. I will post the final coefficients once these rules are finalized, but below are the examples I provided above using these new calcs:

[item]Angry Dread[/item] = ((ilvl - 1.3) / 1.3) * 1H = ((213 - 1.3) / 1.3) * 1.0 = 162.85
[item]Bands of Impurity[/item] = ((ilvl - 1.3) / 1.3) * Wrist = ((213 - 1.3) / 1.3) * 0.54 = 87.94
[item]Chestguard of the Lost Conqueror[/item] = ((ilvl - 1.3) / 1.3) * Chest * Tier Token = ((213 - 1.3) / 1.3) * 1.0 * 1.3 = 211.71
[item]Warglaive of Azzinoth[/item] = ilvl * 1H = 156 * 1.0 = 156

The addon is called itemlevelDKP and is available via Curse Gaming. There will be a supplemental lua file that we've customized that you would need to download in order to have accurate prices on certain items. This will be posted as part of the finalized rules.

As a side note, the initial DKP bonuses will likely be adjusted down to account for this new calculation method which results in lower DKP values per item.

In the current proposition (e.g. ignoring the discussion around Bench DKP), I'm not entirely convinced that DKP bloat will become a significant issue. Resurgent has been (and we'll continue to encourage it to be) a group of individuals with fairly consistent raid attendance. Gone are the days of pre-BC raiding where anyone in the guild could join a raid and we ended up with very high turnover from raid to raid. As such, the zero-sum aspect of this methodology ends up keeping the bloat risk in check. People will be earning and spending DKP fairly regularly as we run through Naxx and the other T7 instances as there are *a lot* of gear options available in those instances. So initially, this isn't a major concern in my mind.

Bloat may become an issue once we graduate up to the next level of raiding. We will be in a much better position at that time to assess how we should handle it. The proposition that Pistos put forth is a very viable option and one that I had considered, but I feel it is premature to deal with that topic at this point. Considered it deferred until we have cleared the T7 instances and are prepared to move on.

Bloat may also become an issue the more we introduce DKP into the system without removing it from somewhere. As Talara points out, the discussion related to Bench DKP could easily become a catalyst for excessive bloat, which is something that we want to avoid.

Finally, considering bloat as a deterrent to future recruiting, I'm not overly concerned about this either. First of all, the majority of folks I've spoken with at the recruitment stage come to the table expecting that we use a DKP system and are surprised that we don't. So those individuals ready to contribute to our raiding as we would like understand and are prepared to enter such a system at ground level. Second, the intent is that a new recruit would also get the initial DKP "deposit" to start them off. Third, I personally don't feel that a new recruit should be getting "prime loot" ahead of an established member who has put in more time and effort to Resurgent so the fact that they start off behind others in their class is not concerning.

DKP just can't be given out for items that are disenchanted in any sort of zero-sum based system. Doing so will very quickly lead to bloated DKP pools and introduces situations where people can abuse the system to the detriment of raid progression. It is true that the DE'd mats are pooled for the benefit of Resurgent at a later point, but tracking DKP on enchanting mats and charging on use introduces too much complexity. And in simplifying matters, the DKP from a DE'd item ends up netting to zero if you assume that all members of the raid earn the DKP, but then are charged the same amount for the enchanting mats to be used at a later date.

This is an unfortunate, but very necessary rule. With the changes Blizzard has made to itemization, we won't have nearly as many circumstance where no one is willing to purchase an item until we are to the point of clearing Naxx regularly.

Bench DKP was proposed in order to ease the "pain" of being asked to sit out during a raid. Rather than earning no DKP, we're offering a portion based on the success of the raid that evening. As Talara said, we will have to discuss this offline a bit further, but I'd like you all to keep a few things in mind as I don't think you are looking at this from all angles.

First, throughout all of our BC raiding, I don't think we ever had to ask more than 2 people to sit out on any given night. And most raids, we ended up with just the right number of people because one or more people just didn't show up. So the perception that there's 5+ people on the bench any given raid, bloating up our DKP pools, just is off-base.

Second, Resurgent has always been fair in asking people to sit, often leaving the decision up to those potentially affected by it. Anyone who spent any time raiding with Resurgent over the past 16 months should know this. In other words, no one would be left behind by this system by consistently being asked to sit.

Third, the very reason that we do have to overfill certain classes or roles is because those individuals are not reliable. Resurgent has always and will continue to strive to field a consistent raid group night-in and night-out. Recognizing that there will always be unforeseen circumstances that keep some individuals from raiding, we are forced to maintain a roster well above 25 people in order to ensure that we raid each night we are scheduled.

Fourth, is it really fair to those 25 individuals grinding it out in a raid to have their shares of the DKP split with others who get to kick back and have a casual night on the bench? The system originally proposed does not detract at all from the DKP the raiders earn and also preserves the value of the DKP they've earned. Awarding someone who didn't raid the same amount of DKP as someone who did raid for 3 hours just doesn't seem fair to me.

Fifth, this whole system (even the one initially proposed) is ripe for abuse and does not encourage consistent attendance in raids. If I know that I will earn the same DKP from raiding as from sitting on the bench, I could easily just log on for invites, offer to sit out, then go out to a movie knowing that I'm benefiting from everyone else's hard work. As it is, "staying available" for the entirety of a raid is quite difficult to police and I'm sure someone will figure out a slick way to beat the system. Making the reward more enticing (e.g. upping from 1/4 to 1/2 or full) makes abuse that much more likely.

Sixth, see objective #2 above. This system is intended to reward those who consistently contribute to successful raids. It is recognized that folks asked to sit do contribute, which is why a portion of DKP is awarded. But the success of that evening's raid hinges on the 25 individuals in the instance working to down bosses and, as such, the vast majority of the DKP earned that evening belongs to them.

Honestly, bench DKP may be more of a headache than it is worth and I'm actually leaning towards removing it from our system. It will never be ideal or perfectly fair for everyone, but if it is to exist for Resurgent, it will support Resurgent's objectives. If this causes too much strife and angst, or if folks can't accept compromises on it recognizing how infrequently it will likely be used, then I'd prefer to simply take it off the table. Please, continue posting opinions on the topic if you'd like; as Talara said, we will be discussing this further.

At the end of the day, keep in mind that Resurgent is still focused on PROGRESSION and we expect each member of Resurgent to share that focus. Your individual objectives should NOT be to have the highest amount of DKP. DKP will go up and DKP will go down, but regardless, there will be plenty of loot to be had throughout our raids.

__________________
70 Priest

Wintrow

Oh yeah, the expectation that everyone think of others and the group as a whole in all loot decisions is still in effect no matter what sort of system we end up with. I feel that many overlooked this tenet of our BC loot system in the end, but Resurgent leaders will continue to emphasize it in the hopes that people consistently think of others before deciding to purchase items.

__________________
70 Priest

Pistos

Regarding DKP for de'd items - it was a big issue pre-BC because we did MC until everyone's eyes were bleeding and couldn't seem to get any traction anywhere else. I doubt it will be as big of an issue anymore.

I still think that bench dkp should be higher. If there's not that many people sitting then it really won't be an issue. And if it encourages people to be available all evening then the group should be able to deal with the occasional person having to bail for some RL emergency. I don't know anyone that would choose to sit regardless of dkp. I mean playing is the reason we play this game.

I understand that every system. including having no dkp system, has its shortcomings so we probably won't be able to get everything perfect for everyone. Thanks again for getting input from everyone. I'm sure we can make it work.

__________________
Gigan - Shaman (Resto)
Pistos - Semi-retired Shadowpriest
...and other distractions of various levels.