Feedback on our Gruul's runs

**Sajier** · 08-14-2007, 02:27 PM

I posted our latest Gruul run at Elitistjerks.com. These guys have done some SERIOUS theorycrafting based on the WWS reports and have given some tremendous feedback to new people entering the 25 mans.

This criticism can be harsh, but these guys spend a great deal of time theorycrafting, they push the envelope on optimization and effectiveness. The people who respond to this thread have been tremendously helpful to other guilds improving, and I think its worth getting past the harshness to consider what they have to say.

So please, go into it with an open mind and maybe we can find ways to improve ourselves.

I will add more to this thread as people respond to my original post.

--------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keiji, Tauren Shaman from Beatdown Brigade

Sajier - your enhance shaman stopped to heal himself 8 times. That's 28 seconds of no DPS and possible drop off of Unleashed Rage on your melee group. He used one health potion but did not use a healthstone. None of your rogues are showing use of a Healthstone either, but they both stopped to bandage several times. Bandaging and healing on the part of your melee is going to lead to loss of DPS time. Get them healthstones so they can have an easy out on one more shatter.

Since you are running with a Boomkin you'll want to make sure the enhance shaman is consuming as few of the Stormstrike debuffs as possible so that the druid gets max use out of the dmg bonus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questioner of Elis

At a quick glance (not checking gear).

1.) With your 3 shadow priests, I recommend dropping to 7 healers. You will gain a good amount of dps, and a shorter kill means less healing needs to be done.

2.) Your hunters have no idea how to play the TBC game. Direct them to the shot rotation thread in the mechanics forum.

3.) Gnopaine had decent dot uptime, but looks like he is just standing around waiting for the next dot refresh. He only cast 6 shadowbolts in 200 seconds.

4.) Zeddzorander seems to think scorch is a primary dps spell. He should be casting fireball even with a TLC.

Gaviin · 08-14-2007, 03:25 PM

Just for the sake of ease...

8/12 WWS reports

Guide to WWS reports

**Tarenth** · 08-14-2007, 03:51 PM

Ouch. I probably should've soap boxed or talked about effective shot rotations in TBC I guess.

With the changes brought about by patch 2.0 its no longer effective to use Aimed shot in a shot rotation (as described in EJ's breakdown), however a hunter should probably use it in a MD sequence if you can do more than 800 damage with it and don't have blessing of slavation.

I personally use a sequencing rotation since I've yet to hit on a 'sweet spot' that I feel good with balancing speed and TPS.

0.0 Steady Cast
1.5 Steady Damage
2.5 Auto
3.0 Arcane shot (CD at 9.0)
4.5 Multidamage (CD at 14.5)
5.0 Auto
6.5 Steady
7.5 Auto
9.0 Steady
9.5 Arcane (CD at 15.5)
10.0 Auto
11.5 Steady
13.0 Auto
14.5 Steady
15.0 Multi
15.5 Auto
16.0 Arcane
etc etc etc

Steady shot takes 1.5 seconds to cast, but that burns the GCD in the process. Its best to wait for an autoshot before recasting something like that (unless you have a shot speed over 3.0 seconds at which point you need a quiver baddly).

Arcane shot is instant, but that still leaves you with a 6.0 second cooldown and 1.5 second GCD before you can use any of your other shots again.

Multishot is 0.5 second cast, but has a 10.0 second cooldown and 1.0 seconds left of the GCD. I disagree with EJ in that they left Multi out of their shot rotations because it is quite significant damage with points in the improved crit rate.

Aimed Shot is 3.5 second cast and has a 6.0 second cooldown, but resets your shot timer to 0. In theory it should be used only during a MD sequence (I like Aimed/Multi/Arcane because I do over 800 damage with each shot and Distracting shot only gives 800 threat. I can crit for well over 3k so that's a lot of threat) so you fire it once every 2 minutes of a single fight.

Your first shot is your fastest shot and will fire in roughly half the time of your shot timer, however as noted by EJ if you fire an instant first you have a lot of 'dead time' before it goes off. Using steady counters this because you are using your initial shot timer to fire off a second shot as well.

The easiest 'high DPS' mode of operation for a hunter would be to shift gears into 'machine gun firing'. This involves using haste effects to speed up the casting of your autoshot and steady shot and just rapid firing steady shot. If you throw an AP boosting trinket into the works then the results can be pretty impressive.

Lets say, perhaps, you managed get get 50% haste with a 2.5 shot speed.

0.0 Steady Cast
0.75 Steady Damage
1.25 Auto
2.0 Steady
2.5 Auto
3.25 Steady
3.75 Auto
4.50 Steady
5.00 Auto
5.75 Steady

Etc etc. The down side being the drain on mana to spam steady so much so fast. Hunters with Rapid Killing and IAotH should make use of those hastes as much as possible to go into 'machine gun mode' as many times during the fight as they can for additional DPS.

Gnopaine · 08-14-2007, 04:00 PM

Heh, interesting comment on me standing around. What I am attempting to do on this fight is always make sure 3 DoTs are up and then get the Shadowbolts in whenever I have a spare moment. Part of making sure the DoTs are up is watching the alerts on Reverberate and Ground Stomp, and refreshing those that are going to expire. My thought was to ensure the DoTs are running as much as possible during this enforced downtime. Generally after a Shatter I have to restart all the DoTs from scratch (and sometimes bandage >.<). Much as I would like to cast more bolts...I'm putting out as many as I can.

However, I'm not particularly pleased with the DPS I'm getting. I'll bear the point in mind next time we're in there. Just not sure more bolts at the expense of fewer DoTs is really the answer, with my spec. Believe me...I ain't standing around.

Running away from cave-ins...trying to crawl away from Jest on my stumpy legs...but standing? nah.

Halten · 08-14-2007, 04:02 PM

We were told that melee wasn't going to get any heals, the only reason I would heal was because it was the same healing as a bandage in 3 seconds instead of 8. Fair trade off to me.

Oh and as far as I knew, Val doesn't use wrath, just moonfire, I think. Not sure though.

**Tarenth** · 08-14-2007, 04:03 PM

Didn't Zedd do some theorycrafting on his 'scorch spec' when he planned out his new talent build? Its true that Fireball does fundamentally more damage than scorch, but does that mean a scorch spec is doomed to failure?

Luckily we can look and see. ^_^

Vala seems to use Starfire Primarily, Moonfire as a secondary, and Wrath as an afterthought. Using Stormstrike and Wrath in combination would definately give a bigger bang than Flame Shock or whatever you're using now.

I do find it odd that Vala cast Nature's Grasp during a Gruul's fight. O.o

Wintrow · 08-14-2007, 06:07 PM

I got a good laugh at some of these comments (maybe cuz none were about me).

But yeah, no need to get defensive or explain yourselves in my opinion. Take it all with a grain of salt and use it as a tool to optimize your performance. The WWS stats don't tell the whole story all the time so these guys can only comment on what they see. Everyone should always be looking for ways to improve how you play your toons; its very dangerous getting stuck in a regular routine...

**Sajier** · 08-14-2007, 06:20 PM

Next!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treibh from Cohors Praetoria

I agree with the suggestions that have already been given. In order to drop a healer you need to get better output out of the ones you have and work on taking less shatter damage.

For your tree druid:

a. Spend all of your talent points.

b. Int is a very poor stat to stack. Go after +healing/+mp5 way before you go after int. Get rid of the int enchants and get +healing. Get rid of all of the +spelldamage gear and get +healing. Should be up over +1200 healing and +100 mp/5 unbuffed easily.

c. It looks like they are caster form casting regrowth and HT on the MT. This is ridiculously inefficient. The MT should be stacked with lifebloomx3 and rejuvenation at all times (it will fall off right after a shatter most likely) and then additional lifeblooms should be scattered on raid healing after a shatter. Check the tree druid theorycrafting thread for more details.

Gaviin · 08-14-2007, 10:11 PM

... wait... Ricca, you haven't spent all of your talent points? /cry

**Ricca** · 08-15-2007, 12:32 AM

When I respeced i was gonna go and look up what spirit does for a druid cause i had some people tell me it wasnt worth the talents and some telling me it was, so I wanted to go look for myself and well I guess I forgot to put them anywhere..LOL my bad

Muirc · 08-15-2007, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarenth

The down side being the drain on mana to spam steady so much so fast. Hunters with Rapid Killing and IAotH should make use of those hastes as much as possible to go into 'machine gun mode' as many times during the fight as they can for additional DPS.

Tarenth - where do you fit in the Serpent or Scorpid into the rotation above? Not to mention the kill command if pet is active.

I read through the forums from the elitistjerks website and found this macro:

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pet, dead]; [nopet]; [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

But it doesn't seem to include Arcane nor the stings.

Are you using a different type of macro Tarenth or you doing this manually?

Just trying to be more efficient.

Thanks,

Mui

**Jest** · 08-15-2007, 12:45 AM

Good thread. I appreciate the feedback on shot rotation and will try out a new one with more steady/autoshot in between arcanes and multi's. Makes me realize the importance of leaving aimed shot out of my shot rotation. Thanks.

Xyris · 08-15-2007, 06:27 AM

is there anything the shadow priests should be doing diffrent, my routeen is, Sw: pain, Vamp touch, mindblast, mind flayx4 (or untell Mindblast's cd is up), renew the vamp touch, mindblast, mind flayx4 (renew sw: pain) LOL not much to what i do idk if pistos does ne thing diffrent but id like to hear on something

**Tarenth** · 08-15-2007, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricca

When I respeced i was gonna go and look up what spirit does for a druid cause i had some people tell me it wasnt worth the talents and some telling me it was, so I wanted to go look for myself and well I guess I forgot to put them anywhere..LOL my bad

Spirit returns mana at a rate of Spirit/4.5 +15 for druids in Caster and ToL form. If you're going to be using ToL (and I strongly suggest it for the best bang for buck) then you will also give +25% of your spirit as flat +healing to your group. You will also recieve an additional +10% of your spirit as +spell healing with Imp Divine Spirit which pretty much is guarenteed with every raid. At 449 with Imp DS (479 with an [Elixir of Draenic Wisdom]) you'll get +67 Spirit from 3/3 in the talent field. That's +14 mana OO5SR and +2.23 Mana every 2 seconds I5SR (Acronyms are Out Of 5 Second Rule and In 5 Second Rule accordingly). Its also +16.75 health per healing spell to your group and +6.7 healing to yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muric

Are you using a different type of macro Tarenth or you doing this manually?

Heh...I do everything manually so I have a better feel for things and I'm not dependent on macros. Kill Command can be used anytime you are not casting something (in the middle of Steady Shot to be exact) and is independent of the Global Cooldown (GCD) so I pretty much slam it between Steady shots or after autoshot crits when I can. I probably could macro it, but then you have situations where you're splitting damage between targets (like Moroes where you're shooting an add and your pet is biting Moroes' kneecaps) or your pet is off tanking that would effectively kill your ability to use the kill command since there is a bug that triggers the cooldown on that ability if the pet is out of range of your current target.

Serpent/Scorpid stings I weave typically after a steady while waiting for my autoshot to go off. If you notice in the estimated cast time sequence I gave above there are some somewhat lengthy gaps in the sequence that a sting can be woven in. If using Serpent sting then I don't mind letting the sting run out to keep with the shot rotation. The sting is HORRIBLE damage for its cost so letting it run out and not bothering to refresh it till its gone is actually a good idea to conserve mana and get every bit of damage from the ticks as possible. You'll be doing better damage sticking with a shot rotation and throwing serpent sting as an after thought than dedicating time and thought to keeping the sting up. Scorpid sting is another matter entirely and depending on where you are in the fight then I would prioritize the reapplication of Scorpid over your shot rotation. Unless you're at 1% and burning down the last dregs of health on the boss your DPS, no matter how high, is unimportant if the tank dies. I pause to reapply if its at 1-2 seconds left (yay DoTimer!) due to the flight time and possibility of a miss. Its another reason why I use a sequencing series instead of a strict shot rotation actually. A sequencing series can just be modified on the fly to do what's needed even if you're technically not getting the best DPS possible because you haven't planned everything out to the last fraction of a second. However a shot rotation tends to break apart when you add extra things to the process like IAotH/trinket haste procs or the need to trap/sting/re-mark which triggers a GCD. Granted in the long run you get more DPS out of a fully planned shot rotation as per EJ, but you also get more headache and if you're not on your game or getting lag you'll start to fall seriously behind on your timing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyris

Is there anything the shadow priests should be doing diffrently?? My routine is: Sw: pain, Vamp touch, mindblast, mind flayx4 (or until Mindblast's cd is up), renew the vamp touch, mindblast, mind flayx4 (renew sw: pain). LOL not much to what I do. I don't know if Pistos does anything diffrent, but I'd like to hear something.

Had difficulty reading that. -.- In such a case you might want to consider falling into a rotation just like a hunter. First off I found that VT after SW:P is a waste if you're going in for the long haul because you haven't stacked up Shadow Weaving and Misery is already applied after SW:P. For the 425 mana price tag you really want as much back as possible and an opening salvo is only going to give the group very little because no one burns much mana before their first cast. The same is true for Mind Blast because ideally you want to burn it after you first apply VT and after 5/5 Shadow Weaving and Misery are up to get the most back.

In my (thankfully brief) period as a shadow priest I did the following:
0.0 SW:P (24 duration to 24.0 1/5 SW and Misery)
0.0-1.5 GCD
1.5-4.5 MF (2/5 SW)
4.5-7.5 MF (3/5 SW)
7.5-10.5 MF (4/5 SW)
10.5-13.5 MF (5/5 SW)
13.5-15.0 VT (15 duration to 30.0)
15.0-16.5 MB (CD down at 22.0)
16.5-19.5 MF
19.5-22.5 MF
22.5-25.5 MB (CD down at 31.0)
25.5 SW:P (24 duration to 49.5)
25.5-27.0 GCD
27.0-30.0 MF
30.0-31.5 VT (15 duration to 46.5)
31.5-33.0 MB (CD down at 38.5)
33.0-36.0 MF
36.0-39.0 MF
39.0-41.5 MB (CD down at 47.0)
41.5-44.5 MF
44.5-47.5 MF
47.5-49.0 VT (15 duration to 61.0)
49.0-51.5 MB (CD down at 57.0)
51.5 SW:P
51.5-53.0 GCD
etc etc etc

You don't need VE until possibly after the first shatter and your group is down some health, but you can also use VE and add SW:K to the rotation for some extra burst damage later in the fight if you expect to heal out of the self damage with it and your tank if far enough ahead to ignore the healing aggro. Shadow Priests are lucky in the regard that they have 1 instant cast (SW:P) they use frequently and 1 they use situationally (SW:K) and everything else meshes well with the 1.5 second GCD because everything is at or over a 1.5 cast time.

To put it very simply I just MF twice (3 second channel) between MB and tossed SW:P after the duration expired if VT is up for Misery.

**Sajier** · 08-15-2007, 11:24 AM

Tarenth, in the shot rotation thread, they were talking about Kill Command resetting the Auto Shot cooldown. Can you verify any validity of that?

08-14-2007, 03:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Gaviin Join Date: May 2006 Location: Chicago, IL Age: 28 Posts: 776	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs Just for the sake of ease... 8/12 WWS reports Guide to WWS reports __________________ 70 Ninja

08-14-2007, 03:51 PM	#3 (permalink)
Tarenth Join Date: May 2006 Location: California Posts: 2,087	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs Ouch. I probably should've soap boxed or talked about effective shot rotations in TBC I guess. With the changes brought about by patch 2.0 its no longer effective to use Aimed shot in a shot rotation (as described in EJ's breakdown), however a hunter should probably use it in a MD sequence if you can do more than 800 damage with it and don't have blessing of slavation. I personally use a sequencing rotation since I've yet to hit on a 'sweet spot' that I feel good with balancing speed and TPS. 0.0 Steady Cast 1.5 Steady Damage 2.5 Auto 3.0 Arcane shot (CD at 9.0) 4.5 Multidamage (CD at 14.5) 5.0 Auto 6.5 Steady 7.5 Auto 9.0 Steady 9.5 Arcane (CD at 15.5) 10.0 Auto 11.5 Steady 13.0 Auto 14.5 Steady 15.0 Multi 15.5 Auto 16.0 Arcane etc etc etc Steady shot takes 1.5 seconds to cast, but that burns the GCD in the process. Its best to wait for an autoshot before recasting something like that (unless you have a shot speed over 3.0 seconds at which point you need a quiver baddly). Arcane shot is instant, but that still leaves you with a 6.0 second cooldown and 1.5 second GCD before you can use any of your other shots again. Multishot is 0.5 second cast, but has a 10.0 second cooldown and 1.0 seconds left of the GCD. I disagree with EJ in that they left Multi out of their shot rotations because it is quite significant damage with points in the improved crit rate. Aimed Shot is 3.5 second cast and has a 6.0 second cooldown, but resets your shot timer to 0. In theory it should be used only during a MD sequence (I like Aimed/Multi/Arcane because I do over 800 damage with each shot and Distracting shot only gives 800 threat. I can crit for well over 3k so that's a lot of threat) so you fire it once every 2 minutes of a single fight. Your first shot is your fastest shot and will fire in roughly half the time of your shot timer, however as noted by EJ if you fire an instant first you have a lot of 'dead time' before it goes off. Using steady counters this because you are using your initial shot timer to fire off a second shot as well. The easiest 'high DPS' mode of operation for a hunter would be to shift gears into 'machine gun firing'. This involves using haste effects to speed up the casting of your autoshot and steady shot and just rapid firing steady shot. If you throw an AP boosting trinket into the works then the results can be pretty impressive. Lets say, perhaps, you managed get get 50% haste with a 2.5 shot speed. 0.0 Steady Cast 0.75 Steady Damage 1.25 Auto 2.0 Steady 2.5 Auto 3.25 Steady 3.75 Auto 4.50 Steady 5.00 Auto 5.75 Steady Etc etc. The down side being the drain on mana to spam steady so much so fast. Hunters with Rapid Killing and IAotH should make use of those hastes as much as possible to go into 'machine gun mode' as many times during the fight as they can for additional DPS. __________________ My sanity is not in question... It was a confirmed casualty some time ago. \|TG\|Tarenth Battlefield 2142 Mirra World of Warcraft Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.

08-14-2007, 04:00 PM	#4 (permalink)
Gnopaine Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Rochester, MN Posts: 94	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs Heh, interesting comment on me standing around. What I am attempting to do on this fight is always make sure 3 DoTs are up and then get the Shadowbolts in whenever I have a spare moment. Part of making sure the DoTs are up is watching the alerts on Reverberate and Ground Stomp, and refreshing those that are going to expire. My thought was to ensure the DoTs are running as much as possible during this enforced downtime. Generally after a Shatter I have to restart all the DoTs from scratch (and sometimes bandage >.<). Much as I would like to cast more bolts...I'm putting out as many as I can. However, I'm not particularly pleased with the DPS I'm getting. I'll bear the point in mind next time we're in there. Just not sure more bolts at the expense of fewer DoTs is really the answer, with my spec. Believe me...I ain't standing around. Running away from cave-ins...trying to crawl away from Jest on my stumpy legs...but standing? nah. __________________ Gnopaine - Level 70 Warlock (Affliction) Scarpia (aka Edbane) - Level 70 Paladin (Holy) Ripoffron - Level 1 Auction House Hustler

08-14-2007, 04:02 PM	#5 (permalink)
Halten Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 457	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs We were told that melee wasn't going to get any heals, the only reason I would heal was because it was the same healing as a bandage in 3 seconds instead of 8. Fair trade off to me. Oh and as far as I knew, Val doesn't use wrath, just moonfire, I think. Not sure though. __________________ Brought to you by General Mills... Ragnar-Os! The only cereal with the Molten Core! BY FIBER BE PURGED!! TASTE THE FLAVORS OF SULFURON! TWO SCOOPS, EXECUTUS! TWO SCOOPS

08-14-2007, 04:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
Tarenth Join Date: May 2006 Location: California Posts: 2,087	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs Didn't Zedd do some theorycrafting on his 'scorch spec' when he planned out his new talent build? Its true that Fireball does fundamentally more damage than scorch, but does that mean a scorch spec is doomed to failure? Luckily we can look and see. ^_^ Vala seems to use Starfire Primarily, Moonfire as a secondary, and Wrath as an afterthought. Using Stormstrike and Wrath in combination would definately give a bigger bang than Flame Shock or whatever you're using now. I do find it odd that Vala cast Nature's Grasp during a Gruul's fight. O.o __________________ My sanity is not in question... It was a confirmed casualty some time ago. \|TG\|Tarenth Battlefield 2142 Mirra World of Warcraft Light, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they ticked me off.

08-14-2007, 06:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
Wintrow Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Deerfield, IL Age: 29 Posts: 521	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs I got a good laugh at some of these comments (maybe cuz none were about me). But yeah, no need to get defensive or explain yourselves in my opinion. Take it all with a grain of salt and use it as a tool to optimize your performance. The WWS stats don't tell the whole story all the time so these guys can only comment on what they see. Everyone should always be looking for ways to improve how you play your toons; its very dangerous getting stuck in a regular routine... __________________ 70 Priest

08-14-2007, 10:11 PM	#9 (permalink)
Gaviin Join Date: May 2006 Location: Chicago, IL Age: 28 Posts: 776	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs ... wait... Ricca, you haven't spent all of your talent points? /cry __________________ 70 Ninja

08-15-2007, 12:32 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ricca Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Georgia Posts: 926	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs When I respeced i was gonna go and look up what spirit does for a druid cause i had some people tell me it wasnt worth the talents and some telling me it was, so I wanted to go look for myself and well I guess I forgot to put them anywhere..LOL my bad __________________ Candrice 62 Warrior Ricca 70 Rogue Machelle 68 Mage Enya 70 Druid

08-15-2007, 12:45 AM	#12 (permalink)
Jest Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Age: 39 Posts: 360	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs Good thread. I appreciate the feedback on shot rotation and will try out a new one with more steady/autoshot in between arcanes and multi's. Makes me realize the importance of leaving aimed shot out of my shot rotation. Thanks. __________________ Jest 70 Dwarf Surv. Hunter Okto 70 Draenei Enhanc. Shammy Zaz 70 Night Elf Prot. Warrior Voran 68 Dwarf Shadow Priest

08-15-2007, 06:27 AM	#13 (permalink)
Xyris Join Date: May 2007 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 20 Posts: 98	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs is there anything the shadow priests should be doing diffrent, my routeen is, Sw: pain, Vamp touch, mindblast, mind flayx4 (or untell Mindblast's cd is up), renew the vamp touch, mindblast, mind flayx4 (renew sw: pain) LOL not much to what i do idk if pistos does ne thing diffrent but id like to hear on something __________________ Tip: If you're dumb like me to add a item link in a post type out [item]Item Name Here[/item] Quote Of The Month "It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip the bird." *RAWR!!!* Xyris: 70 Shadow Priest Faeron: 64 Beast Mastery Hunter

08-15-2007, 11:24 AM	#15 (permalink)
Sajier Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Saint Louis, MO Age: 30 Posts: 1,445	Re: Feedback on our Gruul's runs Tarenth, in the shot rotation thread, they were talking about Kill Command resetting the Auto Shot cooldown. Can you verify any validity of that? __________________ Sajier/\|TG-Irr\|Sajier - WoW Shadow Priest and BF2/BF2142 Assault/Medic TG WoW Home Page \| TG Required Reading \| The Irregulars \| Irregulars Forum

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