Gaviin

Hey all,

As it has previously, the issue of loot procedures came up after our Gruul's run last night. In the past, comments have mainly centered on fairness. For example, "I've been raiding with TG for over a year, and here comes someone who just joined and he's getting gear before me; that's wrong." I refer to this as a "fairness" issue. I understand this viewpoint, and it's something that does concern me to some extent. But the bottom line is, we are striving to be a solid, consistent group, and we should all be working together to get *everyone* geared up. We'll keep at it until we reach that goal. You may not get your piece this week, but we will be back in there next week. Try not to stress about it too much, and just concentrate on the task at hand.

However, the concern expressed last night was more along the lines of, "are we distributing the loot in the most effective way in order to help the platoon progress more smoothly?" I refer to this as an "effectiveness" issue. There are some people who are better geared than others. Obviously the loot is very shiny and new and exciting, but the question that people should be asking themselves is, do I really need it as much as my friend standing next to me in a green or lower quest reward item? Does me taking it help the raid more than that person getting it?

Every individual should pay attention to those details prior to rolling on gear. It makes sense to not stack individuals with gear at the expense of others who are lagging behind, for whatever reason. We should try to progress as a group and keep things balanced. That gives us the best chances of moving forward more quickly.

For that reason, I'm going to stress that people do their research, keep open lines of communication with their platoon mates (and most importantly those who share tier pieces), keep past loots in mind (i.e. if you won the last item over someone, consider passing to that person the next time), and make appropriate decisions on whether to roll. If we feel that someone has not done this or has made an incorrect decision, we will likely distribute the gear ourselves in that particular case and explain why we did so.

I know it's very tempting to roll on gear that is indeed an upgrade for you. I have been guilty of this in the recent past. When the [Gronn-Stitched Girdle] dropped off of Gruul the other week, yes, it would have been an upgrade for me, but Drewidism was clearly in more need of it than me. I didn't win the piece, but I feel that the fact that I rolled probably led to Drew not getting it. I regret that, and in the future, that's the type of situation that will likely lead to the platoon leaders making an independent decision on who gets the loot.

That being said, there are situations where the "fairness" issue and the "effectiveness" issue do converge. In the event of a newcomer to the platoon or a back-up who might not be as geared as a regular core member, it may make the most sense to allow the experienced player to get a certain piece of gear. The reason being that, if that person is constantly having to pass to less-geared people or is just unlucky with rolls, it may become frustrating, and that person will lose a certain degree of drive and spirit because of never seeing any personal gear development. Hopefully most people are in this whole thing primarily for *platoon* development and progress, but I certainly understand the desire to get your toon some new stuff from time to time, especially as a reward for putting in a lot of time and effort to achieve that progress. It keeps people fresh and satisfied, and we do recognize that.

It's clearly a very complex issue with a lot of gray areas. The bottom line is, we'd like everyone to start paying more attention to these loot distribution issues, and if that doesn't happen, we platoon leaders will no longer be shy about making some judgment calls. If that need arises, I can assure you that we will be fair and not favor people based on personal relationships. Sajier and I are very fair-minded and level-headed people who have no agenda other than steering this group through end-game content quickly and efficiently. I encourage you to always make your opinion known immediately if you feel that something is not being conducted fairly. We will address your concerns.

As with anything, please let us know your thoughts on all this. I know the issue of loot can sometimes be a sensitive one, and it's no doubt quite complicated. But I hope that we can all be selfless and keep the greater good in mind.

__________________
Ninja

Xyris

well, ill throw this in the pot, ive always run loot with this one thought in my head. *if the tanks or healers have bad gear then who will hold aggro over me, or who will keep me alive when i do get hit?* i will NEVER roll against a healer or a tank for anything. come on guys only what 3 weeks in and we are already having an issue? this isn't a good sign in my opinion... and as far as "core members" goes i'm apposed to that, it makes others feel like poop b/c they just joined a little later even tho they still give it their all to help out. i think the loot should remain a NEED over GREED with 1 thing kept in mind, say that belt drops again and drewidism is wearing a blue one where as all the other leather wearers are wearing epic's, he should just receive the loot with no need to roll...

suggestion i find helpful that we do in kara is have those who want to roll on the item link their current item prior to rolling, so we can see who it will benefit more

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Xyris: 70 Shadow Priest
Faeron: 64 Beast Mastery Hunter

Aeryck

While I generally agree with both Gaviin & Xyris, I'll play devil's advocate for the sake of discussion (not because I won the [Gronn-Stitched Girdle])

We all know the WoW PvE loot gods are a fickle bunch. Some items drop all the time, while others drop once every blue moon. If a loot drop is a significant upgrade (not merely a minimal upgrade or sidegrade) with no foreseeable upgrade drops for that slot in the near future, people should roll. The group as a whole is still better off with the upgrade no matter who gets the item. It just seems like the "who benefits the most" plan will not go over well when we start getting some of the more infrequent drops finally showing up.

For example, I know I would be more than slightly peeved if I won the roll on [Dragonspine Trophy], but the group decision was to give the item to J. Doe because it was a bigger upgrade from something like [Ancient Draenei War Talisman].

Why? Because [Dragonspine Trophy] is currently the best rogue trinket in the game (Gruul drop) and notorious for not dropping. It's been on my personal "Wanted" list for months. People continue to raid Gruul's for months even after they are far into SSC and TK solely for that trinket and I'm sure I'll be doing the same (even though it's getting nerfed pretty hard next patch).

So, loot distribution should be fair and effective, but the "who benefits most" plan may not always be the best option either.

Xyris

I get what you mean as far as who it benefits most, i think maybe i should step back from the subject, as we all know i'm opinionated beyond even my own control at times hehe... in retrospect to gaviin's core group thing, do you mean those who fought to get where we are have priority vs. someone who came in to assist beause we where lacking one person?

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Tip: If you're dumb like me to add a item link in a post type out [item]Item Name Here[/item]

Quote Of The Month
"It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip the bird."

RAWR!!!



Xyris: 70 Shadow Priest
Faeron: 64 Beast Mastery Hunter

Gaviin

As I said, it's going to be a judgment call situation in most cases, and exceptions can always be made. But there is an undeniable benefit of trying to distribute the loot more evenly across the group. It aids us when certain people can't make it to raids by ensuring that we have decently geared people across the board. It aids us during fights by still being competent in all areas even when certain people may die, as well as by balancing threat generation, healing, or tanking capabilities more evenly.

If you've been raiding KZ for a while now, there really are no "massive" upgrades in the 25-man instances that we're raiding. Most are incremental at best. There may be the occasional item that you just plain want, for whatever reason, and I'm sure that if you let the rest of the platoon know that, they'll be more than accommodating if and when that item drops.

And yes, Xyris, I meant a situation where a non-platoon person comes in to fill out the group in place of a regular member.

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Ninja