whats a raid? - Page 2

=Sarc= · 02-22-2005, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Muffin Man

Ok.......Let me ask this question. How many times have you seen a drive just up and die (without the cause being user oriented)? I have only seen 2 drives die in 7 years, I have never lost anything due to hard disk failure, and there's signs to warn you when a drive is on it's way out.

I guess the actual difference is how computer savvy one is. If you know what you're doing, you will not lose data and the chances will be no higher than running a single large drive.

Perhaps you cannot understand that other people just don't feel the same confidence in hardware. I never personally said I will not run RAID 0 because of the risks. I only said that some do not feel comfortable taking that risk. The fact is that RAID 0 introduces a second hard-drive that can succumb to failure, which will wipe all your data instead of half with no chance for recovery.

The Muffin Man · 02-22-2005, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

read my post in the genreal forums from last month... you are seriously deluded if you think you will never get hit...... you are sedtting yourself up for major distaster.

I did read your post and I responded to it as well.

If you read what I wrote here it was in reference to a disk dying, not losing data (because if it's not dead the data is still there...wether you want to pay for it or not is your choice). I believe you are still using the disk that dumped your file system, which IMO is asking for trouble. Normally, I backup my data every 3-6 months, and I monitor my drives for performance issues and general health.

Seriously deluded, maybe, but if you want to sit back and just wait for your disk to fail and lose your data, that's your issue. I take the proactive route and monitor my equipment for possible issues, if an issue occurs fix the problem or backup. I've been doing this for many years and have yet to have a disaster, I had a disk dump data once due to my own fault but was able to recover most all of it with Stellar Phoenix recovery software.

[D.I]WILDCHILD · 02-22-2005, 10:21 PM

well v!per,your options are this,run a raid config or get a pci ide controller.a ide controller has two connections and each can handle two devices.also,you are not adding a 6th device becouse your floppy drive has its own controller,so your adding a 5th device. (b.t.w. fenix,are you not talking about a 0+1 config?)

**=DdogG=** · 02-23-2005, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Muffin Man

I did read your post and I responded to it as well.

If you read what I wrote here it was in reference to a disk dying, not losing data (because if it's not dead the data is still there...wether you want to pay for it or not is your choice). I believe you are still using the disk that dumped your file system, which IMO is asking for trouble. Normally, I backup my data every 3-6 months, and I monitor my drives for performance issues and general health.

Seriously deluded, maybe, but if you want to sit back and just wait for your disk to fail and lose your data, that's your issue. I take the proactive route and monitor my equipment for possible issues, if an issue occurs fix the problem or backup. I've been doing this for many years and have yet to have a disaster, I had a disk dump data once due to my own fault but was able to recover most all of it with Stellar Phoenix recovery software.

yes, I still use the drives, but I have the data on dvd that I recovered. the drives are fine... the issue was not physical, it was magnetic. someone decided to place a very large speaker near my computer case (found this out 2 weeks ago) the drives were wiped clean.... I recovered a portion of the data, and I now have everything back that I lost (or it was not important enough for me to realize I dont have it.) but drives die. I have seen it happen out of the blue on several occasions with absolutely no warning. laptop drives are way more susceptible, but I have had 4 desktop drives break with no warning. hda's stop spinning, actuators stop moving, boards fry..... it does happen without notice. I have talked to 4 different data recovery centers, and they say the vast majority of the hard drives they work on showed no trouble even seconds before the failure....

**TheFeniX** · 02-23-2005, 01:29 PM

RAID in 5 minutes (if even):

Ok, let's say you've got one disk drive. And you have a file on it. This file looks like

Code:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

Each number represents part of this file.

Your drive would look something like this (This is a very simple layout):

Code:

[1   2   3]
[4   5   6]
[7   8   9]
[10 11  12]

Now, you decide to run RAID 0 with two drives. The RAID controller stripes the data across both drives, they look like this:

Code:

Drive 1    Drive 2
[1 2 3]    [4   5   6]
[7 8 9]    [10 11  12]

Now, since you can read and write parts of the same file to multiple drives: you have increased your throughput, but at the expense of adding another point of failure to your system. But by buying quality drives, you lessen the risk.

RAID 1 is mirroring, it's just taking two equal drives and making them the exact same. Double read performance, lower write performance (but most use a caching system to write to the second drive at low-usage times).

RAID 2,3,4 are never used and not worth explaining.

RAID 5 is striping with parity. Parity is something like 1+2=3. If you lose one number, you can still solve the equation, hence you lose some data, you can usually recover. No matter how many disks you have in a RAID 5 array, you lose one whole disk to parity. This is split up among the drives. Hence, if you have 5 disks in a RAID 5 array, then 20% of each one is used for parity (20% x 5 = 100%), or 25% for 4 drives.

RAID 5 arrays look kind of like this(X - parity):

Code:

Disk 1     Disk 2  Disk 3
[1 2 3] [4 5 6 ] [7 8 9 ]
[X X X] [X X X ] [X X X ]

RAID 5 is particularly found in Server environments.

RAID 10 is striping with mirroring. Take 4 drives, stripe two then mirror them:

Code:

Disk 1         Disk 2
[1 2 3]   --  [4   5   6]
[7 8 9]   --  [10 11 12 ]
    |              |
    |              |
Disk 3         Disk 4
[1 2 3]       [4   5   6] 
[7 8 9]       [10 11 12 ]

Raid 10 has horrible overhead, but great performance and fault tolerance. You can lose two drives and be able to recover most times.

[D.I]WILDCHILD · 02-23-2005, 02:17 PM

i gata hang out with fenix more often.

**=DdogG=** · 02-23-2005, 04:17 PM

your raid 5 example is wrong

drive 1...............drive2................drive3
1..2..3...............4..5..6................x..x. .x
7..8..9...............x..x..x................10.11 .12
x..x..x...............13..14.15.............16.17. 18

this allows a drive to fail but no data is ever lost since if you took drive 3 away, you have parity blocks on drives 1 and 2 to rebuild the data lost from three, and you loose some of the parity blocks from drive 3 that would only be used to rebuild drive 1 or 2

**TheFeniX** · 02-23-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

your raid 5 example is wrong

Thank you for the constructive criticism, but I am trying to explain this to people who don't know anything about it. I was going for ease of interpretation, which your following example lacks.

Let me reiterate:

Let's assume a 3 drive setup with RAID 5 (like in my last example). Parity (as stated before) uses an alogorithem to determine the value of data if it is lost. The easiest example being 1+2=3. So assume again the data 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12, it could work like this in a theoretical setup. Numbers with a P in front of them are parity calculations.

Code:

Disk 1         Disk 2         Disk 3
[1     2]    [3      4]      [P4  P6]  (1+3=4 and 2+4=6)
[5     6]    [P12  P14]      [7    8]  (5+7=12 and 6+8=14)
[P20 P22]    [9     10]      [11  12]  (9+11=20 and 10+12=22)

No, this isn't really how it works. The actual algorithems used are much more complex, but we aren't concerned with that, only how it works on a theoretical level. Hopefully, this might be easier to understand. By using basic algebra, you could remove one "drive" from that disgram and be able to figure out the value of any data with the other two drives. That's what parity does (in a RAID 5 array at least).

**=DdogG=** · 02-23-2005, 05:28 PM

I thought my example was quite easy to understand.

I don't know why this became a pissing contest but let me settle it now.... yours is more yellow, smells better, has a more consistent straem, and is projected further. I hope I have helped you to secure your macsulinity.

now, since this thread is of topic four times removed, SPLIT!!!!!

Black_V!per · 02-23-2005, 07:59 PM

Wow, thats really confusing...

Edit, Okay, now i got it, cool... But i dont think RAID right now is for me...

**TheFeniX** · 02-23-2005, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DdogG=

I don't know why this became a pissing contest but let me settle it now.... yours is more yellow, smells better, has a more consistent straem, and is projected further. I hope I have helped you to secure your macsulinity.

I was trying explain this easily and you decided to nitpick me: I then revised my statement. I never viewed it as a pissing contest but at least I know now where you stand with me.

**leejo** · 02-23-2005, 10:42 PM

Man I just smoked a lot of pot and either I'm having a stroke or TheFenix's raid post is the coolest thing I've ever seen.

EVER!

Quote:

Disk 1 Disk 2
[1 2 3] -- [4 5 6]
[7 8 9] -- [10 11 12 ]
| |
| |
Disk 3 Disk 4
[1 2 3] [4 5 6]
[7 8 9] [10 11 12 ]

!!!!! See?!

**=DdogG=** · 02-24-2005, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

I was trying explain this easily and you decided to nitpick me: I then revised my statement. I never viewed it as a pissing contest but at least I know now where you stand with me.

when giving examples of anything, it is only prudent to make sure the information is accurate. I was not nitpicking. the visual was completely wrong. a simple "yeah, thats what I meant, original post corrected" would have sufficed. there is no "where you stand with me" I just wanted to have the correct infomation on the books. I corrected it, and your response had irritation embedded to say the least.

I hold no ill will, I was making a joke. you can put me on your hate list if you want to though, i can take it. I would ask that anything further you wish to discuss with me in this matter go to pm's though. thank you.

[D.I]WILDCHILD · 02-24-2005, 01:54 AM

well,keeping in line with the question,i belive a raid is one of two things

1.climbing a ladder and stealing womens underware.

2.multiple airplanes attacking a common target.

Black_V!per · 02-24-2005, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [D.I]WILDCHILD

well,keeping in line with the question,i belive a raid is one of two things

1.climbing a ladder and stealing womens underware.

2.multiple airplanes attacking a common target.

Lol, im pretty sure its not the first, or my computer woulda had raid a long time ago... So it must be the second...

02-22-2005, 10:21 PM	#18 (permalink)
[D.I]WILDCHILD Join Date: May 2003 Location: next to the gas station Age: 40 Posts: 154	Re: Help with drives, 6 drives? well v!per,your options are this,run a raid config or get a pci ide controller.a ide controller has two connections and each can handle two devices.also,you are not adding a 6th device becouse your floppy drive has its own controller,so your adding a 5th device. (b.t.w. fenix,are you not talking about a 0+1 config?) __________________ I reject your reality and replace it with my own!!..so let's cut out the middle man and just use mine!! I wasn't born with enough middle fingers!! If you choose to close the door on reality..DON'T OPEN THE WINDOW(S)!!

02-23-2005, 01:29 PM	#20 (permalink)
TheFeniX Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 26 Posts: 4,473	Re: Help with drives, 6 drives? RAID in 5 minutes (if even): Ok, let's say you've got one disk drive. And you have a file on it. This file looks like Code: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Each number represents part of this file. Your drive would look something like this (This is a very simple layout): Code: [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9] [10 11 12] Now, you decide to run RAID 0 with two drives. The RAID controller stripes the data across both drives, they look like this: Code: Drive 1 Drive 2 [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9] [10 11 12] Now, since you can read and write parts of the same file to multiple drives: you have increased your throughput, but at the expense of adding another point of failure to your system. But by buying quality drives, you lessen the risk. RAID 1 is mirroring, it's just taking two equal drives and making them the exact same. Double read performance, lower write performance (but most use a caching system to write to the second drive at low-usage times). RAID 2,3,4 are never used and not worth explaining. RAID 5 is striping with parity. Parity is something like 1+2=3. If you lose one number, you can still solve the equation, hence you lose some data, you can usually recover. No matter how many disks you have in a RAID 5 array, you lose one whole disk to parity. This is split up among the drives. Hence, if you have 5 disks in a RAID 5 array, then 20% of each one is used for parity (20% x 5 = 100%), or 25% for 4 drives. RAID 5 arrays look kind of like this(X - parity): Code: Disk 1 Disk 2 Disk 3 [1 2 3] [4 5 6 ] [7 8 9 ] [X X X] [X X X ] [X X X ] RAID 5 is particularly found in Server environments. RAID 10 is striping with mirroring. Take 4 drives, stripe two then mirror them: Code: Disk 1 Disk 2 [1 2 3] -- [4 5 6] [7 8 9] -- [10 11 12 ] \| \| \| \| Disk 3 Disk 4 [1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9] [10 11 12 ] Raid 10 has horrible overhead, but great performance and fault tolerance. You can lose two drives and be able to recover most times. __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TheFeniX's Steam Profile TG's Team Fortress 2 Steam Group Last edited by TheFeniX; 02-23-2005 at 02:52 PM.

02-23-2005, 02:17 PM	#21 (permalink)
[D.I]WILDCHILD Join Date: May 2003 Location: next to the gas station Age: 40 Posts: 154	Re: Help with drives, 6 drives? i gata hang out with fenix more often. __________________ I reject your reality and replace it with my own!!..so let's cut out the middle man and just use mine!! I wasn't born with enough middle fingers!! If you choose to close the door on reality..DON'T OPEN THE WINDOW(S)!!

02-23-2005, 04:17 PM	#22 (permalink)
=DdogG= Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ennis, TX Age: 31 Posts: 1,692	Re: Help with drives, 6 drives? your raid 5 example is wrong drive 1...............drive2................drive3 1..2..3...............4..5..6................x..x. .x 7..8..9...............x..x..x................10.11 .12 x..x..x...............13..14.15.............16.17. 18 this allows a drive to fail but no data is ever lost since if you took drive 3 away, you have parity blocks on drives 1 and 2 to rebuild the data lost from three, and you loose some of the parity blocks from drive 3 that would only be used to rebuild drive 1 or 2 __________________ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. -Harlan Ellison If all else fails: "rm -rf /"

02-23-2005, 05:28 PM	#24 (permalink)
=DdogG= Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ennis, TX Age: 31 Posts: 1,692	Re: Help with drives, 6 drives? I thought my example was quite easy to understand. I don't know why this became a pissing contest but let me settle it now.... yours is more yellow, smells better, has a more consistent straem, and is projected further. I hope I have helped you to secure your macsulinity. now, since this thread is of topic four times removed, SPLIT!!!!! __________________ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity. -Harlan Ellison If all else fails: "rm -rf /"

02-23-2005, 07:59 PM	#25 (permalink)
Black_V!per Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Kingman AZ. Age: 20 Posts: 1,445	Re: whats a raid? Wow, thats really confusing... Edit, Okay, now i got it, cool... But i dont think RAID right now is for me... __________________ Start counting, when you reach infinity tell me. If you can read this you've got to much time on your hands.

02-24-2005, 01:54 AM	#29 (permalink)
[D.I]WILDCHILD Join Date: May 2003 Location: next to the gas station Age: 40 Posts: 154	Re: whats a raid? well,keeping in line with the question,i belive a raid is one of two things 1.climbing a ladder and stealing womens underware. 2.multiple airplanes attacking a common target. __________________ I reject your reality and replace it with my own!!..so let's cut out the middle man and just use mine!! I wasn't born with enough middle fingers!! If you choose to close the door on reality..DON'T OPEN THE WINDOW(S)!!

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