Upgrading my Mobo and Cpu... - Page 3

en4rcment · 02-10-2004, 02:27 PM

Everytime I go to take a step in a direction...you guys throw in another whirl and put me back at square one.

Here's some more fodder for debate.

I was talking with Mot and he said that I should get a mobo that supports the new Dual Channel DDR memory. Because of the price though, I could only afford 512MB of 400Mhz Dual Channel DDR memory vs 1 GIG of 400MHz DDR memory.

What are your opinions on memory tests and such?

**Overlag** · 02-10-2004, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L0GiCaL1

For the price of your 3.0 ghz P4, you can obtain a A64 3200+ with 1 MB of L2 cache (twice as much as the comparable P4), and probably get a better motherboard with more future expandability options cheaper than the Intel motherboard. The AMD system would also mean that you would not the higher risk of WinXP instability with the motherboard change, not to mention the AMD system also will out-perform the P4 3.0 in every task you could possibly throw at it. The only Intel chips that even stand a chance against it are the new P4 Extreme Editions and the Xeon both of which are way out of the price range. Go with the AMD. When Overlag and myself (who have been arguing this whole topic about the benefits and downsides of both processor types) agree the AMD is the better choice for your computing needs, there is something to be said for that.

sorry about the other stuff :?

**Overlag** · 02-10-2004, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by en4rcment

Everytime I go to take a step in a direction...you guys throw in another whirl and put me back at square one.

Here's some more fodder for debate.

I was talking with Mot and he said that I should get a mobo that supports the new Dual Channel DDR memory. Because of the price though, I could only afford 512MB of 400Mhz Dual Channel DDR memory vs 1 GIG of 400MHz DDR memory.

What are your opinions on memory tests and such?

Shouldnt be that great of a cost difference to say that you can only get 512 if you go dual???

yes, ALL good P4's motherboards are dual channel, this is because the CPU is running on a 800fsb which needs about 6.4gb/s bandwidth. The only way to get that is to get 2x400mhz channels of DDR, which give 3.2gb/s each...

...You can get single channel P4 boards, but that will be a MASSIVE downgrade on performance and not worth the extra money you would save.

Adding another twist is, A64s are single channel which means you will spend less on ram too. So basicaly, A64's are cheaper, A64 MB's are cheaper, and the ram too!

socket 939 is around the corner (march-may time) for AMD this will bring dual channel ram to the desktop range.

en4rcment · 02-10-2004, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overlag

yes, ALL good P4's motherboards are dual channel, this is because the CPU is running on a 800fsb which needs about 6.4gb/s bandwidth. The only way to get that is to get 2x400mhz channels of DDR, which give 3.2gb/s each...

...You can get single channel P4 boards, but that will be a MASSIVE downgrade on performance and not worth the extra money you would save.

Ok, so a dual channel makes a good motherboard. But do I need the Dual Channel Memory to take advantage of the motherboard?

If I got a dual channel motherboard and put in two sticks of 512mb DDR 400MHz memory (not dual channel DDR memory) will my computer still be fast?

I'm pretty sure I need at least a gig of memory. Ghost Recon and it's modding editor IGOR seem very memory intensive and I have a gig of PC266 DDR memory now.

This discussion seems to have snowballed out of hand a bit. I am not dealing with a fantasy dream machine with no limits on spending. I simply want to upgrade my computer and get the best bang for my buck with a budget of around $500.

Also, my parts dealer is an intel affiliate. He therefore gets me cheaper rates on intel parts (and there is another discount in there because an aquaintance of mine does big business with him). So, right now I'm thinking of staying with the Pentium 4 and getting an Intel mobo that supports Dual Channel memory (but I'm not sure if I need that).

**Overlag** · 02-10-2004, 05:53 PM

dual channel is dual channel

you need 2x whatever size chips

for instance 2x256, or 2x512, its like the old days of fitting pairs of simms

**Overlag** · 02-10-2004, 06:27 PM

sorry to say this but PC266 (i think you mean PC2700) will NOT be enough...

Well, thats a lie, it might work with dividers you got 2x512mb chips?

You might not need Dual channel, but the P4 does ;-)

Mot73 · 02-12-2004, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overlag

dual channel is dual channel

you need 2x whatever size chips

for instance 2x256, or 2x512, its like the old days of fitting pairs of simms

You need 2 "matched" sticks of memory..buy them as a pair.

You can't just throw in 2 sticks and expect it to run in dual channel mode!

Mot73 · 02-12-2004, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by en4rcment

So, right now I'm thinking of staying with the Pentium 4 and getting an Intel mobo that supports Dual Channel memory (but I'm not sure if I need that).

you need it! NEVER buy a P4 board and processor that isn't 800Mhz nor dual channel ddr. Your upgrading for performance. No sense in going from a yugo to a volkswagon bug.

My recommendations are to buy a P4 2.8C (800Mhz) with a motherboard using the 875P chipset and supporting dual channel ddr (which is most likely will) and as much memory (DUAL CHANNEL) as you can afford. probably sticking with Corsair XMS or Kingston HyperX purchased IN PAIRS ONLY!!!

You will be happy with your performance.

One note of caution. If you can afford it....buy the 2 512MB chips. Seems the 865 and 875 chipsets don't play as will with 4 memory modules. So upgrading by adding 2 additional chips down the road is not as productive. You'll have better performance with just using 2 sticks.

**Overlag** · 02-12-2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Mot73+

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overlag

dual channel is dual channel

you need 2x whatever size chips

for instance 2x256, or 2x512, its like the old days of fitting pairs of simms

You need 2 "matched" sticks of memory..buy them as a pair.

You can't just throw in 2 sticks and expect it to run in dual channel mode!

marketing mate.... marketing

as long as they are the same make, they are normaly the same build.

Mot73 · 02-12-2004, 11:23 AM

I've never gotten two purchased independantly purchased modules to function in dual channel mode.

You saying you can buy one this month and one next and it will work?

hmm why risk it?

=Sarc= · 02-12-2004, 11:31 AM

I've got two non-matched sticks running dual channal. It works great but not much of a boost with my AMD processor. Buying two sticks at the same time should be good enough for dual channel. If you go with the same brand, you have a good chance of getting them to work.

**Overlag** · 02-12-2004, 11:52 AM

well yes mot... if your buying your ram at the same time it will be fine. Normaly Dual channel "kits" dont (well shouldnt) cost more than 2x "single channel" chips, but due to the marketing they normaly are.

getting 2x of the same MAKE will be fine. As long as you dont get unlucky and get one single sided, and one double sided DIMM...... unlikely though.

worth the risk? well i dont know, but if it costs more to buy a dual channel kit then yes, because they are RIPPING YOU OFF. Over here most dual channel kits cost like 50p more (about $1) and thats just because the box is bigger

hell some of them are cheaper

for instance 2x 512mb PC3200 LLPT chips from corsair cost £83.50 each...or £167 together. But the daul channel kit costs £163.50

L0GiCaL1 · 02-14-2004, 01:32 AM

Overlag is correct yet again folks, buying a kit vs buying 2 pieces has no difference what-so-ever in performance or stability. The memory Mot73 is talking about is quite good but plain-jane CAS 2.5 PC3200 DDR will do just fine. You are paying way too much for very little actual benefit. It is like buying a pair of Nike's... you buy them more for the name than you do for the actual benefit they have over the competitor. It is definitely marketing hype. en4... this topic includes a lot of good advice, especially concerning whether or not to go Dual Channel. You will most definitely see a HUGE performance increase with the 800 mhz FSB (or the 1600 mhz FSB with the A64 3200+) on the P4 2.8C and Dual Channel DDR. Without Dual Channel DDR you are limiting your 2.8C, which effectively cuts your processor performance by 25% or more. If you are going to do it, do it right and go for the whole shebang... you will appreciate it much more that way and actually feel like you got something.

If it isn't too much to ask, what kind of budget are we talking about here? This would allow us to submit our recommendations at purchase price per componet and show you whole "upgrade" kits and the benefits you might get from every side of the fence.

Overlag, it is ok man... at least we agree to disagree (and occasionally we don't even have to do that).

Edit: I missed the budget number, so disregard that part. I'll do some number crunching tonight and leave you with some stuff tomorrow en4.

L0GiCaL1 · 02-14-2004, 02:08 AM

Ok, doing shopping at pretty much my favorite online retailer www.MWAVE.com

I have built 4 upgrade kits based on what has been discussed as viable options (disregarding Dual Channel DDR kits from name-brand manufacturers). I have used the same memory at the same price in each of these kits so that should be considered a constant. The only variables are motherboard and processor. We have 4 motherboards from different manufacturers and 2 processors (P4 2.8CG and A64 3200+).

**********************************************

Kit 1:

ATHLON 64 (OEM) BUNDLES
Details (AOPEN AK89 MAX-MB; AMD ATHLON 64 3200+; MWAVE 1GB DDR400(512MB X 2)

$520.40

Disclaimer: "I'm personally an AOpen fan as they make a good product at generally middle of the road prices. Basically they make Gigabyte boards without the Gigabyte name and markup."

Kit 2:

PENTIUM 4 - 800Mhz (RETAILED) BUNDLES
Details (ASUS P4C800DLX-MB; PENTIUM 4 2.8CG; MWAVE 1GB DDR400(512MB X 2)

$498.30

Kit 3:

ATHLON 64 (OEM) BUNDLES
Details (ASUS K8V DLX-MB; AMD ATHLON 64 3200+; MWAVE 1GB DDR400(512MB X 2)

$538.25

Kit 4:

INTEL BOXD875PBZLK BUNDLE W/ RETAILED Details (PENTIUM 4 2.8CG (800Mhz); MWAVE 1GB DDR400(512MB X 2)

$469.95

This is the Intel Board you mentioned earlier en4, and was by my estimation a middle of the road motherboard which for $30 or $40 more you could have a GREAT board in the ASUS P4C800. I've never been much of a person for Intel's RAID chips either.

******************************************

You can go to MWAVE and go thru their motherboard/cpu bundle creator and find what you want, and they also provide good technical specs on all the equipment I have quoted here. With the AOpen motherboard I actually saw a $5 decrease on the A64 3200+ which means the MWAVE is pushing the AOpen board hard.

The price difference between all of them is totally up in the air, but the performance difference is spectacular. The 2.8C doesn't hold a candle to the A64, even with Dual Channel DDR. As Overlag mentioned, AMD is going to be releasing the Socket 939 series of Dual Channel A64's soon. That is also an option, and allows you to get the total benefit of the platform instead of only half (although half seems to be better than Intel at the moment in the home PC market).

**Overlag** · 02-14-2004, 09:42 AM

ok... i did some testing with some "crap" memory i had brought... Adata PC3200... I dunno if anyone heard of them. Well the crap memory was only crap because i wanted it to run 2-2-2-6

it works fine at PC3200 2.5-3-3-8, INFACT it works fine all the way upto PC4000 2.5-3-3-8....Why? because its major on 3rd (good chips on average boards) Its Winbond 5b chips

not bad at half the price of my corsair

02-10-2004, 02:27 PM	#31 (permalink)
en4rcment Join Date: May 2003 Age: 35 Posts: 620	Everytime I go to take a step in a direction...you guys throw in another whirl and put me back at square one. Here's some more fodder for debate. I was talking with Mot and he said that I should get a mobo that supports the new Dual Channel DDR memory. Because of the price though, I could only afford 512MB of 400Mhz Dual Channel DDR memory vs 1 GIG of 400MHz DDR memory. What are your opinions on memory tests and such? __________________

02-10-2004, 05:53 PM	#35 (permalink)
Overlag Join Date: May 2003 Location: NE Outer London, UK Age: 26 Posts: 1,540	dual channel is dual channel you need 2x whatever size chips for instance 2x256, or 2x512, its like the old days of fitting pairs of simms __________________ From Adam Webb

02-10-2004, 06:27 PM	#36 (permalink)
Overlag Join Date: May 2003 Location: NE Outer London, UK Age: 26 Posts: 1,540	sorry to say this but PC266 (i think you mean PC2700) will NOT be enough... Well, thats a lie, it might work with dividers you got 2x512mb chips? You might not need Dual channel, but the P4 does ;-) __________________ From Adam Webb

02-12-2004, 11:31 AM	#41 (permalink)
=Sarc= Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 4,625	I've got two non-matched sticks running dual channal. It works great but not much of a boost with my AMD processor. Buying two sticks at the same time should be good enough for dual channel. If you go with the same brand, you have a good chance of getting them to work. __________________ JO Guides & Tutorials Team Element - It's who you game with.

02-12-2004, 11:52 AM	#42 (permalink)
Overlag Join Date: May 2003 Location: NE Outer London, UK Age: 26 Posts: 1,540	well yes mot... if your buying your ram at the same time it will be fine. Normaly Dual channel "kits" dont (well shouldnt) cost more than 2x "single channel" chips, but due to the marketing they normaly are. getting 2x of the same MAKE will be fine. As long as you dont get unlucky and get one single sided, and one double sided DIMM...... unlikely though. worth the risk? well i dont know, but if it costs more to buy a dual channel kit then yes, because they are RIPPING YOU OFF. Over here most dual channel kits cost like 50p more (about $1) and thats just because the box is bigger hell some of them are cheaper for instance 2x 512mb PC3200 LLPT chips from corsair cost £83.50 each...or £167 together. But the daul channel kit costs £163.50 __________________ From Adam Webb

02-12-2004, 11:23 AM	#40 (permalink)
Mot73 Join Date: May 2003 Location: DuBois, PA Age: 43 Posts: 586	I've never gotten two purchased independantly purchased modules to function in dual channel mode. You saying you can buy one this month and one next and it will work? hmm why risk it?

02-14-2004, 01:32 AM	#43 (permalink)
L0GiCaL1 Join Date: May 2003 Location: Marion, NC USA Posts: 249	Overlag is correct yet again folks, buying a kit vs buying 2 pieces has no difference what-so-ever in performance or stability. The memory Mot73 is talking about is quite good but plain-jane CAS 2.5 PC3200 DDR will do just fine. You are paying way too much for very little actual benefit. It is like buying a pair of Nike's... you buy them more for the name than you do for the actual benefit they have over the competitor. It is definitely marketing hype. en4... this topic includes a lot of good advice, especially concerning whether or not to go Dual Channel. You will most definitely see a HUGE performance increase with the 800 mhz FSB (or the 1600 mhz FSB with the A64 3200+) on the P4 2.8C and Dual Channel DDR. Without Dual Channel DDR you are limiting your 2.8C, which effectively cuts your processor performance by 25% or more. If you are going to do it, do it right and go for the whole shebang... you will appreciate it much more that way and actually feel like you got something. If it isn't too much to ask, what kind of budget are we talking about here? This would allow us to submit our recommendations at purchase price per componet and show you whole "upgrade" kits and the benefits you might get from every side of the fence. Overlag, it is ok man... at least we agree to disagree (and occasionally we don't even have to do that). Edit: I missed the budget number, so disregard that part. I'll do some number crunching tonight and leave you with some stuff tomorrow en4. __________________ Raven Shield Admin Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. - Douglas Adams

02-14-2004, 02:08 AM	#44 (permalink)
L0GiCaL1 Join Date: May 2003 Location: Marion, NC USA Posts: 249	Ok, doing shopping at pretty much my favorite online retailer www.MWAVE.com I have built 4 upgrade kits based on what has been discussed as viable options (disregarding Dual Channel DDR kits from name-brand manufacturers). I have used the same memory at the same price in each of these kits so that should be considered a constant. The only variables are motherboard and processor. We have 4 motherboards from different manufacturers and 2 processors (P4 2.8CG and A64 3200+). ******************************************** Kit 1: ATHLON 64 (OEM) BUNDLES Details (AOPEN AK89 MAX-MB; AMD ATHLON 64 3200+; MWAVE 1GB DDR400(512MB X 2) $520.40 Disclaimer: "I'm personally an AOpen fan as they make a good product at generally middle of the road prices. Basically they make Gigabyte boards without the Gigabyte name and markup." Kit 2: PENTIUM 4 - 800Mhz (RETAILED) BUNDLES Details (ASUS P4C800DLX-MB; PENTIUM 4 2.8CG; MWAVE 1GB DDR400(512MB X 2) $498.30 Kit 3: ATHLON 64 (OEM) BUNDLES Details (ASUS K8V DLX-MB; AMD ATHLON 64 3200+; MWAVE 1GB DDR400(512MB X 2) $538.25 Kit 4: INTEL BOXD875PBZLK BUNDLE W/ RETAILED Details (PENTIUM 4 2.8CG (800Mhz); MWAVE 1GB DDR400(512MB X 2) $469.95 This is the Intel Board you mentioned earlier en4, and was by my estimation a middle of the road motherboard which for $30 or $40 more you could have a GREAT board in the ASUS P4C800. I've never been much of a person for Intel's RAID chips either. **************************************** You can go to MWAVE and go thru their motherboard/cpu bundle creator and find what you want, and they also provide good technical specs on all the equipment I have quoted here. With the AOpen motherboard I actually saw a $5 decrease on the A64 3200+ which means the MWAVE is pushing the AOpen board hard. The price difference between all of them is totally up in the air, but the performance difference is spectacular. The 2.8C doesn't hold a candle to the A64, even with Dual Channel DDR. As Overlag mentioned, AMD is going to be releasing the Socket 939 series of Dual Channel A64's soon. That is also an option, and allows you to get the total benefit of the platform instead of only half (although half seems to be better than Intel at the moment in the home PC market).

02-14-2004, 09:42 AM	#45 (permalink)
Overlag Join Date: May 2003 Location: NE Outer London, UK Age: 26 Posts: 1,540	ok... i did some testing with some "crap" memory i had brought... Adata PC3200... I dunno if anyone heard of them. Well the crap memory was only crap because i wanted it to run 2-2-2-6 it works fine at PC3200 2.5-3-3-8, INFACT it works fine all the way upto PC4000 2.5-3-3-8....Why? because its major on 3rd (good chips on average boards) Its Winbond 5b chips not bad at half the price of my corsair __________________ From Adam Webb

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