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Discussion: Action / Left 4 Dead - FISHing L4D style. - It's been a while since I posted anything here and it's been a while since
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    Ski-Racer's Avatar

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    FISHing L4D style.

    It's been a while since I posted anything here and it's been a while since I played anything online but I have been having a lot of fun with Left 4 Dead--especially as the infected. What guilty pleasure.

    As survivors, the biggest tactical mistake--by far--I see is a disorganized process to exit or enter a confined area. Usually the lead person gets to the doorway or threshold, sees a threat, and either stops or takes a knee to shoot.

    This is bad for two reasons...

    1. It exposes your teammates behind you to a host of unpleastness including booms and pulls. Ever been pulled by a rooftop smoker at the beginning of No Mercy's Sewer level? More than likely it's not your fault. The guy in front rushes into the hallway to the right, sees a random, one-shot-one-kill bot zombie and stops to shoot it. His stopping log jams the rest of the team in the alleyway to be easy prey.

    2. It creates a offensive disadvantage because you are the only one who can see and shoot. All of your teammates behind you have no ability to bring their senses and weapons into the fight. Fixing Number 2 is the focus of this thread.

    I sometimes get flamed for saying this (usually by underage non-military types protecting the NSW mythos) but on a tactical bulletin board, a real-deal Navy SEAL downplayed the amount of hand-to-hand training that they get. Oh, they are quite trained and capable but his point was this. Why get all locked up in a H2H situation when a much better option is to stuff 2, 3, 7, or 8 shooters into the room to hose down anything that is hostle? His job is not to prove he is a badass by taking out someone with his bare hands. His job is to do a simple shove so the 7 guys behind him can light the threat up. Then they move-on.

    With that, I bring you: FISHing (aka Fighting In Someone's House) FPS style.

    I actually wrote earlier versions of this a few years ago when participating in CAL League 10 v 10 Desert Combat and in the 21st Century Warfare 30 v 30 tournament. Some of it has changed and most of it has been refined over the years (including graphics!) but the core is still the same.

    Let's remind ourselves why teamwork works. Teamwork works for 4 reasons.
    1. Because you divide the work so that each element has a simple task that is easily achieveable
    2. You can take calculated risks (such as temporarily turning your back on an area) because your teammates have it covered
    3. Because you can overlay redundancy to your primary tasks to ensure success
    4. Because you can fill in where your teammates need help and vice versa

    One of the main themes of how I am laying this out is "holons" and "holonarchy." A holon is something that is simultaneously a whole and a part. A holonarchy is a hierarchy of holons. What all of this means is that we are trying to choose tactics that scale from individual to buddy team to squad to division. As battlefield commander you use the same tactics to govern 2 squads as a squad leader would use to govern 2 buddy teams. The individuals in the buddy team would use the same tactics at an individual level.

    For this reason, the survivors should be divided into 2 buddy teams of 2 and not 3 and 1 or anything else. This seems self explanatory in L4D but in other games (BF, FFOW, JOTR, etc), I see lots of deviations from this. The only proper deviation is if the game forces one player into a static role (aka leader is the spawn point) in which case you have a 3-man team of (2 + 1) to do one task or a 5-man team of (2 x 2 + 1) to do 2 tasks.

    Remember: the goal is to go from zero to the maximum number of shooters in the room in a little time as possible.

    Old Style: The wrong way that you need to learn first.

    So there is an old style and a new style. The old style is falling out of favor for it's propensity for blue-on-blue (aka friendly fire). But you need to learn the old style first because a) it forms the building blocks for the new style, and b) it allows you to un-fvck yourselves if the new style goes sideways.

    Old Style is composed of 6 things.

    1. Read system. The first man in reads the situation and reacts accordingly. The second man reads what the first man does and reacts accordingly (usually by doing the opposite).

    2. Slicing the pie. This is a fancy way of saying circle-strafe. To turn left, you would strafe *right* (D key) while moving your mouse to the left. This basically keeps your crosshairs centered on the danger areas as you are expose to them. If you were moving deliberately (very slowly in a stealth entry mode), you would slowly round the corner by "slicing" a little more each time...only enough extra exposure that you can effectively control.

    3. Painting. Imagine the flashlight on your weapon was a paint brush. Make sure you paint the entire corner. If it is a vertical corner (hallway that bends to the left or right), then make sure you paint (i.e., visually check) from toes to sky. If it is a horizontal corner (ledge that angles down or stairway that angles up), then make sure you paint (i.e., visually check) from left to right (or right to left). This ensures you don't miss any enemy in sneaky spots.

    4. Button-hook. This is a fancy way of saying U-turn. Let's say you were entering a room and you were approaching the doorway from the right. In essence, performing a button hook would entail making a U-turn as you pass through the doorway so you could clear the near right corner.

    5. Criss-cross. This is a fancy way of saying move through the doorway to the far side. It is the opposite of button-hook. Let's say you were entering a room and you were approaching the doorway from the right. In essence, performing a criss-cross would ential going straigh through the doorway so you could clear the near left corner. Criss crosses are only for narrow thresholds (<5m). Don't go trying to criss-cross an open field.

    6. Running the walls. Once in the room or area, the 2 elements (individuals, buddy teams, etc.) progress through the area by sticking near the walls and pointing their weapons towards the center of the back wall (or next doorway).

    So here is how it works assuming a <5m threshold.

    The #1 man (guy in front) approaches the doorway. Absent a minimap to verify that your teammate is directly behind you, he should pulse his throttle (release W key for just a blip) once about 3-5 steps before the threshold to give time for his teammates behind him to catch up. Accordioning is common in FPS because lag affects how quickly your teammates see you move.

    If the #1 man sees that the opposite corner is devoid of threats, he button-hooks into the room. If there is a threat then he criss-crosses to engage the threat. Some schools of thought have the #1 man criss cross but since he has better line of sight than the people behind him, he either takes the threat or the unknown space (by U-turning).

    The #2 man (guy in back) watches what the #1 man does (without stopping, of course). If the #1 man disappears through the threshold it's because #1 man button hooked. Therefore #2 man criss-crosses. If #2 man sees #1 criss-cross then #2 man would button-hook.

    And you're in! #1 man clears his corner then occupies it. From his corner #1 visually clears his far corner, then the center of the room, and then checks on his buddy the #2 man. The #2 man clears his corner and then occupies it. From his corner #2 visually clears his far corner, then the center of the room, and then checks on his buddy the #1 man. Finally they run the walls to the next threshold.

    How would this happen if you had a squad of 4 instead of a buddy team (of 2)? In exactly the same way (remember holon). The #3 man would do the opposite of #2 which means that he would do the same thing as #1 man and end up on the same side as #1 man. Number #4 man would do the opposite of #3 which means he would do the same thing as #2 man and end up on the same side as #2 man.

    The only difference for #3 and #4 is that they would stop short of entering #1's or #2's corner--stopping about 1/3 down the wall. Also, they would clear the center of the room, then their far corner, and then their near corner (checking on their buddy in the process). In essence the first things that #3 and #4 visually clear are the last things that #1 and #2 visually clear (and vice versa).

    For wide thresholds (>5m) everyone would button hook because anyone who tries to criss-cross a wide threshold is exposed in the doorway for too long.

    Problems with the "Old Style"

    A) Blue-on-blue. There is a high tendency to sweep and shoot your buddy or teammates because they are across from you. This is especially true as you "run the walls." It's unavoidable because the guy on one side has a vastly different view to the front and a vastly different set of exposures than his counterpart on the other side.

    B) Slow. Mainly due to high level of decision making and deep level of penetration before "going to guns." Since each person has to make a decision, there is tendency to stop or slow down in the doorway (aka the fatal funnel). This is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Moreover if the room is large, enemy have up to a second to light you up while you are still moving into your corner.

    Enter the "New Style" which is composed of the following (same numbers replace, new numbers augment)

    1. "No Read" System. Everyone goes to a pre-assigned spot based on what order they are in the stack

    6. Shallow Entries. Rather than occupying a corner or running a wall, the #1 and #2 men only go 3 steps to 1/3 of the way in. If they are accompanied by a #3 and/or #4 men, then they would go 2/3s of the way down.

    7. Wall Flood. This is a fancy way of saying to assemble in a skirmish line (or line abreast) formation with your backs to the wall. The wall is usually the same wall that has the doorway that you entered from.

    8. Penetration Flood. This is a fancy way of saying run into the center of the room and each take a compass point (NW, NE, SE, SW).

    9. Skirmish Line. Instead of running the walls, you proceed through the space in a line abreast manner with everyone staying even. There is a scene in "Behind Enemy Lines" (where Owen Wilson is a pilot shot down in Bosnia) where a tank knocks a hole in a wall and the enemy infantry begin clearing the building. The manner by which the enemy clears the building and searches for Owen is a skirmish line and what it is supposed to look like.

    10. High-Low (or Over-Under). This is a fancy way of saying that the front man (#1 man of a buddy team) or #1 and #2 man of a 4-man squad broken into 2 teams of 2 should kneel so his buddy can shoot over his head and engage the same targets that he can. Again this is all about stuffing more shooters into the same space. This gets back to one of the primary pillars of teamwork--redundancy for primary tasks (in this case 2 guns on threat).

    So here is how a wall flood works assuming a 2-man buddy team.

    The #1 man approaches the doorway. Again, absent a minimap to verify that your teammate is directly behind you, he should pulse his throttle (release W key for just a blip) once about 3-5 steps before the threshold to give time for his teammates behind him to catch up. The last thing you want is for you to be in the room by yourself for any length of time.

    The #1 man is going to button hook and move 3 steps to 1/3 of the way down the wall and kneels. He then visually clears the corner in front of him, then the far corner, then the center of the room, and then checks on his buddy and his buddy's area.

    The #2 man is going to criss-cross and move 3 steps to 1/3 of the way along the wall and kneels. He then visually clears the corner in front of him, then the far corner, then the center of the room, and then checks on his buddy and his buddy's area.

    Let's say #1 man found a threat and is engaging while #2 man found nothing. Number 2 man could then stand and shoot over the kneeling #1 man. Again, high-low. Again, redundancy to complete primary tasks.

    If you are going to enter as a 4-man team, the process is almost the same. Remeber "holon." You are simply transitioning from buddy team with 2 individuals to a squad with 2 buddy teams. Each buddy team now does what the individual did in the 2-man entry with the following 3 changes.
    1. The #1 and #2 men enter 2/3 of the way down the wall (or 5-6 steps) so there is room for the #3 and #4 men to enter and occupy 1/3 down the wall.

    2. The #1 and #2 men kneel (aka high-low) so that the #3 and #4 men can shoot over the heads of the #1 and #2 men into the near corners.

    3. The #3 and #4 men visually clear the center of the room, then their corresponding far corner, and then the near corner (above the heads of the #1 and #2 men). Again, in essence they visually clear first what the #1 and #2 men clear last.

    Note: there is really no difference between in what you do between a room that is "fed" by a door in the center of the wall (aka "center fed room") versus a door in the corner of the wall (aka a "corner fed room"). On a corner fed room you simply run partway down the next wall. You can treat corners ("L" intersections) like a corner fed room.

    Try doing this when exiting the saferoom on No Mercy's Subway level or exiting the "diner" before the exploding gas station on No Mercy's Sewer level. Another great place is that underground room in No Mercy Subway just after leaving the subway cars and before where you press the button to open the door (this is the dark area with lots of pillars and a hole in the ceiling to the minigun area). I think you will find that it is an efficient, safe, and reasonably effective way of exiting the hallway and entering that area.

    Finally, here is how a Penetration Flood would work. An excellent spot to try this is the ticket-booth area towards the beginning of No Mercy Subway. Penetration Floods are really pretty simple. In essence, the element occupies the center of the room and visually clears a corner.

    #1 man would move just beyond the center of the room (additional 2-3 steps), and then kneel. He would then point NW (assuming you entered from the South) and visually clear N, NW, and W.

    #2 man would move just beyond the center of the room (additional 2-3 steps), and then kneel. He would then point NE and visually clear N, NE, and E.

    #3 man would move almost to the center of the room (minus 2-3 steps) and kneel. He would then point SW and visually clear S, SW, and W.

    #4 man would move almost to the center of the room (minuse 2-3 steps) and kneel. He would then point SE and visually clear S, SE, and E.

    In essence, you have formed a box in the center of the room with your backs to each other and weapons facing out. Once you have confirmed your arc is clear, you should *stand* and clear the arc of your teammates (again, high-low).

    And there you have it. FISHing in one post. It would probably be better with diagrams (which I have). If I can leave you with one last comment. Always think about how you can make room for the shooters behind you to help you clear your space together. Both you and they will live longer.
    Last edited by Ski-Racer; 04-06-2009 at 04:51 PM. Reason: general cleanup and grammer fixes, clarifying some things

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  3. #2

    WhiskeySix's Avatar

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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    great post! It's probably beyond most casual players to operate w/ the precision you talk about here (buttonhooks, etc), but it's still a good read - there are definitely some very valuable ideas here!

    A general SOP that we could pull out of this is just to trust eachother when entering/exiting a room. Instead of all 4 running straight out:

    The 1st person through the door pick a direction, left or right (trusting the other 3 will cover his blind-spots).

    The #2 takes a sharp turn opposite #1.

    #3 and #4 act in a flex role to deal with whatever happens (pounce/smoke/horde). They generally take the middle.

    |TG-12th|WhiskeySix

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    Celestial1's Avatar

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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    I think the old style would be a little easy for the smaller rooms with less threat for one person (and another can check the other side of the hall) while 2 stand in the halls on alert (ie, a room in the hospital level near the reception desk, once the infected bosses are killed or not putting out any audio for the survivors; Bill checks room left, Francis checks room right, if a hunter is sounded in either room Louis or Zoey comes in to assist.)

    Newer style(s) would be very good for open points (ie, blood harvest in the concrete tunnels just before the collapse of the bridge by train crescendo) and when audio or visual of the bosses has been confirmed by the survivors.

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    peardog's Avatar

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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    Wow.. Very Detailed... Probably great for Rainbow 6 or Swat...

    But considering for 99% of all game play will be without TG'ers..and of the others you may have a small percentage that uses a Mic..and of those the rest are SMACKTARDS and just screw around and do whatever they want.. It's great jsut to get a group of 4 together that will stay together win or lose. And if you are Unlucky enough to get that player who has the MOUTH and acts like a 10 yoa.. geez.. What games are these folks coming from CSS? I guess I got spoiled with TG ARMA and TG Project Reality.. There are some true Jerks out there in Gaming land.
    |TG|ARMA Pathfinder
    ..now where did I put my keys?

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    WhiskeySix's Avatar

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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    Quote Originally Posted by peardog View Post
    Wow.. Very Detailed... Probably great for Rainbow 6 or Swat...

    But considering for 99% of all game play will be without TG'ers...
    wait, what? are you joking? you pub it nearly all the time? dude... this game blows without solid teammates

    |TG-12th|WhiskeySix

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  11. #6

    Boot's Avatar

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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ski-Racer View Post
    FISHing in one post.
    The principles here are pretty simple really, and well stated. I urge anyone who brushed past it due to length to look again. It's a fast read and you don't have to be all hardcore to put it into casual practice. To sum:

    1. You're moving in pairs anyway to cover special infected, so enter the room together.
    2. First man in get out of the doorway: a few steps left or right, crouch, clear the corners you are facing.
    3. Second man in go the other way, crouch, clear those corners.
    4. If a third and fourth come in, 3 follows 1 and stands behind; 4 likewise with 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by peardog View Post
    There are some true Jerks out there in Gaming land.
    That's what Steam's buddy list is for.
    |TG-12th| Boot

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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiskeySix View Post
    wait, what? are you joking? you pub it nearly all the time? dude... this game blows without solid teammates
    Not if all you are looking for is.... BRAINSSS
    |TG-12th| Namebot


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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    Well, in this title, much like in real life when you dont have to worry about civvy's or friendlies the best way to clear most rooms is to hose the room down from the outside through the wall, then go inside and count the bodies. Another reason why the HR and autoshotty are still the best weapons and the m16 is such crap. (unless you are outside, then the autoshotty is crap and the m16 is godly assuming you can aim) If I had a nickel for every infected special or normal I killed through a wall, I could retire and buy a yacht to toll around in....

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  17. #9

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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morganan View Post
    Well, in this title, much like in real life when you dont have to worry about civvy's or friendlies the best way to clear most rooms is to hose the room down from the outside through the wall...
    Yeah, that works great for noisy SI but clearing every room this way would run you out of ammo pretty quick. I still like FISH for situations like the burger tank, where someone inevitably moves in too far alone and shoots straight ahead only to get swamped from the side. FISH style would have the first man move right towards the soda machines and a second move along the wall to engage those in front. Every zombie has a gun on it, and you avoid some miscellaneous normal infected damage. At the higher difficulty levels, even one or two zombie swipes can cause problems.
    |TG-12th| Boot

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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    Bah, I've never run out of ammo with the shotty or HR unless I forgot to grab some at an ammo pile. With the m16 that is defintely an issue though. It's why I say generally the m16 is crap for this game.

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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Namebot View Post
    Not if all you are looking for is.... BRAINSSS
    I thought the point was that they DON'T have brainsss...
    "Sympathy means a lot, coming from Kulmar. I didn't think it was possible.
    Good luck getting rid of your disease. If you're infected, though, stay away--I can't afford to be a zombie right now.
    " Ednos




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    Re: FISHing L4D style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morganan View Post
    Bah, I've never run out of ammo with the shotty or HR unless I forgot to grab some at an ammo pile. With the m16 that is defintely an issue though. It's why I say generally the m16 is crap for this game.
    While I prefer the M16, I see your point. It's really a restraint weapon; You shouldn't fire too much, or you'll run out quickly. However, it does have the ability to take down both far SI and close infected with ease, which makes it a good weapon in certain areas (M16 is seen in best use on Dead Air's finale, when camping on the side of the C-130 opposite the fuel truck).


    Although, personally, I still prefer FISHing for clearing-I've been doing it quite a lot lately, just not always perfectly.

    When sure I won't be caught by friendly fire and not clearing rooms with others, I often look through the door (criss-cross style) move and turn along the doorframe, and look in again to ensure both corners are clear, then move into the room or proceed with my team if I didn't saw anything of importance.

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