Welcome to Tactical Gamer

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22
Discussion: Natural Selection / Natural Selection - General Discussion - Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer. - I would like the 3.0 seconds suicide timer. Keep it more default and standard please.
  1. #1


    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    12
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    I would like the 3.0 seconds suicide timer. Keep it more default and standard please.

    I understand that it could possibly be abused but nothing that comes to mind that would potentially harm the server too much. And if it does... thats what admins are for.

  2.  
  3. #2

    ImAWuss's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    New Hampshire, USA
    Age
    32
    Posts
    559
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    My Vote: Ney.
    birdie_in_Texas:ok..i feel stupid here..what is "NS"..? Wyzcrak:Natural Selection. Don't feel at a loss for not knowing the acronym. Feel at a loss for not having experienced the game.

  4.  
  5. #3


    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    12
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    Mind elaborating on why?

  6.  

     
  7. #4

    Wyzcrak's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    15,385
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    Regarding elaboration: "standard and default" is not compelling.

    What do you need right now that you can't have with a 15 second suicide timer?
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

  8.  
  9. #5

    Lt.Asher's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Cheyenne,Wy
    Age
    30
    Posts
    81
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    Granted I'm playing somewhat the devils advocate here... and my gameplay/knowledge is 4 years old...

    But isn't 15 seconds a painfully long time? Like second coming of Christ long time in FPS games? If I remember correctly suicide was painfully overpowered, I'm not sure where it lies now. But I would think that a 15 second timer on Suicide would require massive ammounts of teamwork (which I'm not knocking, don't get me wrong) but it seems that instead of allowing for some lea-way into creative personal touches that we'd be forcing the hand of a team to either use suicide fully or not at all with that long of a timer.

    Just some food for thought... who knows, may give you food poisoning.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved heaven and earth, that which we are, we are;
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

  10.  
  11. #6

    ImAWuss's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    New Hampshire, USA
    Age
    32
    Posts
    559
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    Suicide, while part of the game, doesn't contribute to your team. Personally, the only time that I can see this being used is at the end of a game, where there's no hope left. I compare it to "Jumping in the pit" or "off the cliff".

    Bottom line, there's nothing wrong with 15 seconds.
    birdie_in_Texas:ok..i feel stupid here..what is "NS"..? Wyzcrak:Natural Selection. Don't feel at a loss for not knowing the acronym. Feel at a loss for not having experienced the game.

  12.  

     
  13. #7

    Lt.Asher's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Cheyenne,Wy
    Age
    30
    Posts
    81
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    That's all well and good... but it's a poor argument at best.

    Saying suicide doesn't add anything to team playing is no argument for making the timer 15 seconds. If people are blowing themselves up and not being team players, that's an issue with the players and not with the ability.

    The equivilent of your argument is saying snipers should be disabled on a rush map because there are no sniping positions. It holds no merrit and the core problem still lies with the player and not with the ability.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved heaven and earth, that which we are, we are;
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

  14.  
  15. #8

    lush's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Age
    35
    Posts
    69
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    I still haven't heard a valid reason for why it SHOULD be anything less than 15 seconds.

    I can't remember the last time I even used /kill, nor can I think of any reason within the game that dying in 3 secs has any advantage over dying in 15.

    Since TGNS has been configured this way for, what years?, I don't think "I'm impatient" is gonna be a good enough reason for us to change it now.

  16.  
  17. #9


    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Age
    33
    Posts
    283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    I think the reasoning behind the 15 seconds is essentially a 'realism' argument. One of the things the TG primer mentions is trying to keep games as close as possible to a realistic simulation. With the classification of NS as an 'action' game, we don't see much of that, but this setting does predate that classification. Basically, the idea is that it's not very realistic to intentionally die so that you can reappear in a better position. Ordering people to kill themselves just isn't quite right... "Hey NSplayer, kill yourself." "Sir, yes sir."

    As to the 'suicide is poor teamwork' argument, I don't think that holds up. When comming, there have been many times when I would have ordered someone to suicide if we had the instant timer present on some servers and didn't have any rule against it. I've lost a number of games where nobody was dying and we were left open to a base rush. It's easy to see this coming, but with nobody spawning there aren't many options to respond to it that don't carry a high cost or risk (remote beacon, relocate, marines running home, comm hopping out). As it is, I will often order a marine in a poor position to push into the hive with the intention of that marine respawning to build or do something more useful after his death. On the alien side, if the spawn queue is empty and you've hit lifeform/chamber res, a fast suicide would often be beneficial to your team.

    I'm not arguing in favor of changing the timer, as I don't think frequent suicides would make for a more enjoyable game, but I wanted to make sure that we understood some of the changes we would see by reducing the suicide timer.

  18.  

     
  19. #10

    Wyzcrak's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    15,385
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    Discussion on this is fine, but it needn't drag on.

    The thread will be closed sometime on Tuesday night, I imagine. Any compelling arguments will need to be made by then.
    Steam Community? Add me. | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.

  20.  
  21. #11


    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    850
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    I think the case that the pro-reduced timer camp has to make is to give examples of cases where actions made possible by a reduced timer have legitimate gameplay reasons that do not border on exploitation/unrealism.

    Ag's example is not accepted as a valid tactic here, for the same reason that f4ing and rejoining is not.

    An example of where kill-suiciding is valid is being stuck on a portion of the map and /stuck not being sufficient to dislodge oneself. In that case, though, the current timer is sufficient.

    My Vote: Neigh.

    I like horsies.
    Cool! Personalized plates! Barclay, Barry, Bert, Bort...come on...Bort?

  22.  
  23. #12

    Kerostasis's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Age
    30
    Posts
    3,855
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    If you really need to kill yourself, maps are usually filled with convenient pits, ledges, and skulks that will gladly fill your need to move on to the next life. While being able to kill yourself at the touch of a button is occasionally a useful strategic ability, most of those uses border on exploitive -- if you can offer some strategic use that does not appear exploitive, by all means offer it for our consideration. Otherwise 15 seconds is fine.
    Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns.
    Yoshi MCF: The fact that you speak Wyz doesn't disprove his insanity. It only proves yours.
    Pokerface: It's now cheaper to put gas on my cereal. I am saddened.

  24.  

     
  25. #13


    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Age
    33
    Posts
    283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerostasis View Post
    If you really need to kill yourself, maps are usually filled with convenient pits, ledges, and skulks that will gladly fill your need to move on to the next life. While being able to kill yourself at the touch of a button is occasionally a useful strategic ability, most of those uses border on exploitive -- if you can offer some strategic use that does not appear exploitive, by all means offer it for our consideration. Otherwise 15 seconds is fine.
    So we've run in to a bit of a problem in this discussion, in that we don't have a definition of what is actually an 'exploit'. Zib states that the examples I provided are not 'valid' tactics, presumably because they appear 'exploitative', but again, we don't have any clear idea of what that means. I think the unconscious definition being used here is very similar to 'any strategic or tactical advantage derived from using the kill command'.

    The problem is that definition exactly fits what you are asking people to provide, which means any successful example is automatically considered to be an exploit by the very criteria that are used to judge its success. Before asking for examples of legitimate use, you need to provide a standard to judge what is legitimate, without going into circular logic by referring to whether it appears 'exploitative' (which is undefined).

    If you want to say that it should stay at 15 seconds to avoid uses that violate the realism clause in the primer, that's fine and I completely agree. All I ask is that you don't pretend that you're offering an opportunity for people to provide 'valid' strategic uses when you are unable to provide any clear standard for what is considered 'valid'.

    Once you've provided a standard, then we can consider whether rfk denial or suiciding to return to the base/hive is actually legitimate.

  26.  
  27. #14

    blu.knight's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    573
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Once you've provided a standard, then we can consider whether rfk denial or suiciding to return to the base/hive is actually legitimate.
    I can't provide a standard, though my opinion on those two strategies i can; and maybe this will help us deduce a standard.

    rfk denial is an exploit because you break game mechanics by doing it. RFK is in the game for a reason. If you are about to die and hit /kill not only does it frustrate players, but you are cheating the system.

    On the other hand, killing yourself to return to base seems like a valid strategy to me, and is no different than jumping in a pit or purposely letting an alien eat you. We allow the second two. The reason I don't consider it an exploit is that it is basically the same as the two situations I just outlined, and in doing so you add one more player to the spawn queue and need to wait to respawn. I don't think this is cheating the system.

    edit: While I think suicide for movement is a legitimate strategy, I also think this detracts from the 'realism'. I feel that we should not reduce the timer to 3 seconds for these stategies, but as some have said, 15 seconds is a hell of a long time in the world of NS. If you actually get stuck in a map (which is really the only valid reason I see for using kill in TGNS) you spend a decent amount of time trying to get yourself unstuck before actually resorting to suicide. For this reason, I think the timer should be reduced to help prevent the frustration I, and many others, have felt due to map glitches.

  28.  
  29. #15

    FireFly's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Age
    26
    Posts
    42
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.

    If you want "realism" suicide timer should be instant since I'm pretty sure when you point a gun at your head and pull the trigger you die right away.. not in 15 seconds. In any case, wouldn't 5 seconds be reasonable? Any lifeform should be able to kill you before you suicide so they'll get their rfk and its not so long as to be fustrating in other situations.
    No matter how good an idea you think it is. If you tfac MS, your team will eject you, your clan will cut you, and your mom wont love you. - RouterBox's guide to commanding

  30.  

     
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


  
 

Back to top