admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional

**Wyzcrak** · 09-17-2004, 03:06 AM

The following is from a conversation we had in March regarding CD being optional. It alludes to a setup we had on the server which left CD REQUIRED until an admin showed up, at which point CD would become optional and would remain optional until the end of the map, regardless of how long the admin stayed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zek

So we've been able to try CD on full optional today, and the final conclusion is pretty apparent; it's exactly like the early days of 3.0 beta when we didn't have CD on at all. The majority of the players are just pubbers and certainly don't fit in very well in a teamwork-oriented environment. TG doesn't have the benefit of reputation that gives some servers a more intelligent no-CD populace. While I think CD-optional is better than not at all just because of the reserve slots, it's not much of an improvement. I'm not sure why, but it seems like the admin-caused Optional CD rarely resulted in such an unpleasant collection of players.

So the question is, what are we going to do about it? If we're going to leave CD as optional, we are without a doubt going to need more admins. Generally it just isn't fun playing with the No-CD crowd without an admin to keep them in line. The only way to give this server a good reputation and hopefully attract more regs is to aggressively administrate it to keep out the idiots and keep in the good players.

On the other hand we could go back to CD-Req when an admin isn't on, like we were doing before. The only issue with that is obviously the extreme difficulty in starting a game when an admin isn't around to, well, disable CD...

It occured to me the other day that I couldn't recall why we stopped this, and I finally found my answer: essentially, admins weren't around enough to make this practical.

But things have changed since then. We now have temp admins, which has proven to be a very successful program. I'm experimenting with an idea that extends conditionally-optional CD to all members (and therefore temp admins).

Effective immediately, CD will become optional anytime a member joins the server and will remain optional until the map change, regardless of whether or not that member stays in the map. Upon mapchange, CD becomes required again until a member joins (even if the member joins immediately, having never really "left" from the previous map).

MEMBERS, THIS MEANS MORE WORK WHEN YOU'RE IN THE ROLE OF TEMP ADMIN. THERE ___WILL___ BE MORE IDIOTS.

If the members want this disabled, just say the word. Otherwise, I think it will help traffic on the server when members are playing.

To the regulars who aren't members (or the members who aren't temp admins): You really must give a ___reason___ when asking a (temp or otherwise) admin to remove a player from the server. You don't have to give a novel about it, but a simple reason (excessive voicespam despite warnings; reswhoring with no response to communication requests; intentional TKs; etc). Don't ask for players to be removed without specifying a reason, and please don't assume the admin knows the reason. That having been said, the reason doesn't have to be as concrete as the examples above. You guys all understand basically what belongs on the server and what doesn't. Don't forget, also, that you can start a SAY_TEAM command/messsage with an at sign (@) in order to send a message to all admins (temp or otherwise) on the server.

lordflametide · 09-17-2004, 01:11 PM

Joy...we'll see how it goes. I'm not gona fight against a lesser CD requirement until I see the effects...but I don't have high hopes. *shrug*

Polska · 09-17-2004, 05:18 PM

The only time CD optional ever worked was when people who used cd kicked those who did not (rsr slots or whatever?). Right now the CD optional is jsut a pain in the ass. I hope the situation improves because right now all its doing is causing people who are used to better games here to leave.

PS - "excessive voicespam despite warnings; reswhoring with no response to communication requests; intentional TKs" saw all those and more in one game, lets rejoice.

Wintermute · 09-17-2004, 06:29 PM

Is the "Get CD" spam thing still on?

Lt.Asher · 09-17-2004, 06:30 PM

I bring you to this thread.....

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showthr...t=10572&page=2

in this thread I said that Player enforcement was needed, at which point I was better to have a 7vs8 (rines vs aliens) game then a 8v8 game with newbie people. I firmly beleave that IF we are going to be true public then we need enforcement. I will try my best to help people but some people are just greefers for one reason or another.

**Wyzcrak** · 09-17-2004, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polska

PS - "excessive voicespam despite warnings; reswhoring with no response to communication requests; intentional TKs" saw all those and more in one game, lets rejoice.

Members have the power to remove those players who refuse to act per the server's rules.

lordflametide · 09-17-2004, 07:22 PM

It really comes down to this. While I have no problems performing basic admin functions, all night I've been finding myself policing people MORE than playing, which just doesn't cut it. And it CERTAINLY doesn't work out when I'm trying to command. A game on ns_metal took about 3x as long as it should have, because I had to a) kick the previous commander, who responded to no communications, made no communications of his own, dropped 6 IPs, two turret factories, and like 8 turrets, near the beginning of the game. b) People were generally misguided, despite my attempts to aid them in every way possible from the command chair, but being ns_metal, a map fairly rarely played, its mildly understandable.

This extra time required to complete the game lead to a BUNCH of alien whinning and a lot of headaches for me. As I stated in another thread, the CD requirement is the first step to playing with people who WANT to learn, WANT to get better, WANT to play with equal or higher skilled players, and WANT to have a quality game. Without the CD requirement, just about any shmuck can join.

While the CD-optional ability leads to more frequent big games, and more frequent ns classic games, the quality of play is SIGNIFICANTLY lower. I would much rather play a good 5 on 5 than a trashy 8 on 8. Also, some admins are less religious in the policing of the no-CD populace, and I can't really say I blame them. However, having just temp admin access, I often have no access to advanced admin commands at all.

Basically, we need more police (more admin privilages active at a time...which has its own set of problems) or we really need to go back to CD-required. The first option (more admins) leads to a better quality of play to those not effected. The second option (CD-REQ) means everyone gets to have the previously higher quality of play, including the admins who don't have to worry about such things very often anymore.

I personally recommend the second option. Re-enable the CD required status to on.

**Wyzcrak** · 09-17-2004, 07:41 PM

Hm.

Hmmm....

To be sure, applying your admin powers toward the successful growth of a server is a constant (as in.. never letting up) job and responsibility, not a power trip.

I acknowledge that people support Tactical Gamer because they want a fine community in which to play online games, not because they want to play cop all day.

At the same time, I'm surprised at how quickly this is being shot down. This seems to me an opportunity to let new players into our environment only when the environment is represented, at least in part, by those players who represent it best: our supporting members... all the while preserving an admin presense.

Time you spend kicking newVisitorA is often observed by newVisitorB, who also found newVisitorA obnoxious and is eager to find a place to play where obnoxious players don't.. and CAN'T. Because newPlayerB hasn't been much of a problem this game, you haven't noticed much of him, but he's likely to notice what you're doing, as an enforcer of the environment he's looking to play in.

lordflametide · 09-17-2004, 07:48 PM

The main problem that I'm seeing, is the AMMOUNT of new/obnoxious players. This hinders our ability to aid the select few that need it, and in general causes mayham. Also, theres times when teams get auto-stacked, all no-CD people against the admins and regulars. Then they fumble for a commander, get frustrated, etc. About the only way to help alleve this is to guarantee yourself as commander, which I often do. My main problem is the fact that I'm trying to police things AND command at the same time.

I have a birds eye view, so I know exactly who on my team is not doing what, or is doing something counter-productive, however, with the regulars and such stacked against me, I simply don't have time to do both. Also, amongst so MANY new and unguided or misled or obnoxious players, its hard to find those that are willing to learn and will help complete objectives, etc, and to actually help them out while I deal with the others. This being so, those good apples often get caught up trying to figure out whats going on, and end up following the bad apples, etc.

In the present state, theres just too much confusion, and too low of a ratio between skilled/regulars/members to no-CD folk. Helping one or two people out, sticking with them, showing them to tricks of the trade and stuff is no problem. Handling 8 of the same people is a problem, because no actual playing gets done. Combat situations go horribly wrong, so they don't learn much about that, etc.

I still view, and fully believe, that CD is a pre-requsite for finding those players that want to expand their play ability, have better games, learn new tricks and tactics, and help out teamwork. While some people without CD will have these qualities, they're few and far between, and difficult to find in the swarms of others.

**Wyzcrak** · 09-17-2004, 07:51 PM

Ok... here's another idea:

A command which allows any two admins (temp or otherwise, and only in mandatory concert) to set CDOPT if the two admins are on seperate teams. The CDOPT would remain in effect for the duration of the map, regardless of anything.

This means that CD would only be optional ONLY when BOTH teams had admins prepared and willing to manage the incoming players. You want quality at all costs? Do nothing. Feel like risking quality in the interest of quantity/recruitment? Flip the switch.

Thoughts?

I'm just trying to help out. I'm really sorry when I create headaches.

lordflametide · 09-17-2004, 07:54 PM

I believe that what you suggest would work very well. Plus in those slow times where its all regulars or what not, and we're bored, we flip the switch, and its like instant players. It would be a great addition, and should probably be at least tried. However, I assume it'll take some time, and in the meantime we need to decide what to do until our options (such as the CDreq/opt switch) become wider, and more available.

EDIT: And oh yah! CD people have priority over no-CD people, right? Like the no-CDs will get kicked? Or do we need to enable CD again for when adj` hosts his seminar tonight?

Turbinator · 09-17-2004, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

Members have the power to remove those players who refuse to act per the server's rules.

hmmm i should have asked ender to kick half of the team then.

Lt.Asher · 09-17-2004, 08:35 PM

Ya know... I wanted to beleave this would work. I wanted to beleave that no-cd would bring more people and eventually better players. But it's not. I haven't had a single enjoyable game where I'm not telling someone to do something (mostly shooting at ceilings or res whoring).

We pay (I'll be joining as a paying member soon nuff) to become full members because we enjoy and support this server and want it to stay at the highest level enjoyment/intregrity that are to our levels and this is not possable without CD-Req.

**_Ender_** · 09-17-2004, 08:42 PM

I know what game you're talking about and no I couldnt have. An admin was on the server which made me lose my admin powers. When he left, I never got them back.

My take on cd optional is this. It sucks. I've been playing all day and I havent had a good game (Well there was one CO game). They have all been filled with half ass teams which always get their asses kicked by the other team (With all the regs and admins on it), and with people who just refuse to commincate with anything. So far I have (as a temp admin) had to kick at least a half a dozen people today just for not communicating. I dont mind stepping up and being an admin, but when I'm forced to either deal with the non-communitive SOBs or kick my entire team I get fruestrated. When I get fruestrated I ask myself why am I even playing.

Muffy, you should of asked me for help. I would of helped you kick a lot of those players. I wouldnt of gotten on your case about finishing it faster, but from the sounds of it, it was just as fruestrating on my team as it must of have been on yours.

Lt.Asher · 09-17-2004, 08:46 PM

Here's the biggest problem with letting total n00bs in. None of us are.

A lot of you may be going "DUH". But you can't mix higher and lower tiers. It won't work. There needs to be a minimum level of skill that we accecpt. When half your team can be soloed by one person it makes life a lot harder. Escpially on the comm. It is not fair to either team to make them teach brand new recruits. If you want to set aside one night for "newbie tuesday" or whatever that will work. But we want to play and under the current conditions it doens't work.

09-17-2004, 01:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
lordflametide Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA Age: 22 Posts: 189	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional Joy...we'll see how it goes. I'm not gona fight against a lesser CD requirement until I see the effects...but I don't have high hopes. shrug __________________ --T3C[]-[]N0 []v[]UFF1N The vending machine originated in Egypt in 215 B.C. Learn somethin new everyday, dontcha?

09-17-2004, 05:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
Polska Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Age: 26 Posts: 715	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional The only time CD optional ever worked was when people who used cd kicked those who did not (rsr slots or whatever?). Right now the CD optional is jsut a pain in the ass. I hope the situation improves because right now all its doing is causing people who are used to better games here to leave. PS - "excessive voicespam despite warnings; reswhoring with no response to communication requests; intentional TKs" saw all those and more in one game, lets rejoice. __________________ I love gaming, mmmmmmmm

09-17-2004, 06:29 PM	#4 (permalink)
Wintermute Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: UK Age: 24 Posts: 1,166	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional Is the "Get CD" spam thing still on? __________________ Wintermute Play EVE online. It's like being an accounting addict in space. www.MakePovertyHistory.com

09-17-2004, 06:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
Lt.Asher Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cheyenne,Wy Age: 25 Posts: 81	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional I bring you to this thread..... http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showthr...t=10572&page=2 in this thread I said that Player enforcement was needed, at which point I was better to have a 7vs8 (rines vs aliens) game then a 8v8 game with newbie people. I firmly beleave that IF we are going to be true public then we need enforcement. I will try my best to help people but some people are just greefers for one reason or another. __________________ Though much is taken, much abides; and though We are not now that strength which in old days Moved heaven and earth, that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

09-17-2004, 07:22 PM	#7 (permalink)
lordflametide Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA Age: 22 Posts: 189	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional It really comes down to this. While I have no problems performing basic admin functions, all night I've been finding myself policing people MORE than playing, which just doesn't cut it. And it CERTAINLY doesn't work out when I'm trying to command. A game on ns_metal took about 3x as long as it should have, because I had to a) kick the previous commander, who responded to no communications, made no communications of his own, dropped 6 IPs, two turret factories, and like 8 turrets, near the beginning of the game. b) People were generally misguided, despite my attempts to aid them in every way possible from the command chair, but being ns_metal, a map fairly rarely played, its mildly understandable. This extra time required to complete the game lead to a BUNCH of alien whinning and a lot of headaches for me. As I stated in another thread, the CD requirement is the first step to playing with people who WANT to learn, WANT to get better, WANT to play with equal or higher skilled players, and WANT to have a quality game. Without the CD requirement, just about any shmuck can join. While the CD-optional ability leads to more frequent big games, and more frequent ns classic games, the quality of play is SIGNIFICANTLY lower. I would much rather play a good 5 on 5 than a trashy 8 on 8. Also, some admins are less religious in the policing of the no-CD populace, and I can't really say I blame them. However, having just temp admin access, I often have no access to advanced admin commands at all. Basically, we need more police (more admin privilages active at a time...which has its own set of problems) or we really need to go back to CD-required. The first option (more admins) leads to a better quality of play to those not effected. The second option (CD-REQ) means everyone gets to have the previously higher quality of play, including the admins who don't have to worry about such things very often anymore. I personally recommend the second option. Re-enable the CD required status to on. __________________ --T3C[]-[]N0 []v[]UFF1N The vending machine originated in Egypt in 215 B.C. Learn somethin new everyday, dontcha?

09-17-2004, 07:41 PM	#8 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,139	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional Hm. Hmmm.... To be sure, applying your admin powers toward the successful growth of a server is a constant (as in.. never letting up) job and responsibility, not a power trip. I acknowledge that people support Tactical Gamer because they want a fine community in which to play online games, not because they want to play cop all day. At the same time, I'm surprised at how quickly this is being shot down. This seems to me an opportunity to let new players into our environment only when the environment is represented, at least in part, by those players who represent it best: our supporting members... all the while preserving an admin presense. Time you spend kicking newVisitorA is often observed by newVisitorB, who also found newVisitorA obnoxious and is eager to find a place to play where obnoxious players don't.. and CAN'T. Because newPlayerB hasn't been much of a problem this game, you haven't noticed much of him, but he's likely to notice what you're doing, as an enforcer of the environment he's looking to play in. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

09-17-2004, 07:48 PM	#9 (permalink)
lordflametide Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA Age: 22 Posts: 189	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional The main problem that I'm seeing, is the AMMOUNT of new/obnoxious players. This hinders our ability to aid the select few that need it, and in general causes mayham. Also, theres times when teams get auto-stacked, all no-CD people against the admins and regulars. Then they fumble for a commander, get frustrated, etc. About the only way to help alleve this is to guarantee yourself as commander, which I often do. My main problem is the fact that I'm trying to police things AND command at the same time. I have a birds eye view, so I know exactly who on my team is not doing what, or is doing something counter-productive, however, with the regulars and such stacked against me, I simply don't have time to do both. Also, amongst so MANY new and unguided or misled or obnoxious players, its hard to find those that are willing to learn and will help complete objectives, etc, and to actually help them out while I deal with the others. This being so, those good apples often get caught up trying to figure out whats going on, and end up following the bad apples, etc. In the present state, theres just too much confusion, and too low of a ratio between skilled/regulars/members to no-CD folk. Helping one or two people out, sticking with them, showing them to tricks of the trade and stuff is no problem. Handling 8 of the same people is a problem, because no actual playing gets done. Combat situations go horribly wrong, so they don't learn much about that, etc. I still view, and fully believe, that CD is a pre-requsite for finding those players that want to expand their play ability, have better games, learn new tricks and tactics, and help out teamwork. While some people without CD will have these qualities, they're few and far between, and difficult to find in the swarms of others. __________________ --T3C[]-[]N0 []v[]UFF1N The vending machine originated in Egypt in 215 B.C. Learn somethin new everyday, dontcha?

09-17-2004, 07:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,139	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional Ok... here's another idea: A command which allows any two admins (temp or otherwise, and only in mandatory concert) to set CDOPT if the two admins are on seperate teams. The CDOPT would remain in effect for the duration of the map, regardless of anything. This means that CD would only be optional ONLY when BOTH teams had admins prepared and willing to manage the incoming players. You want quality at all costs? Do nothing. Feel like risking quality in the interest of quantity/recruitment? Flip the switch. Thoughts? I'm just trying to help out. I'm really sorry when I create headaches. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

09-17-2004, 07:54 PM	#11 (permalink)
lordflametide Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cheyenne, Wyoming, USA Age: 22 Posts: 189	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional I believe that what you suggest would work very well. Plus in those slow times where its all regulars or what not, and we're bored, we flip the switch, and its like instant players. It would be a great addition, and should probably be at least tried. However, I assume it'll take some time, and in the meantime we need to decide what to do until our options (such as the CDreq/opt switch) become wider, and more available. EDIT: And oh yah! CD people have priority over no-CD people, right? Like the no-CDs will get kicked? Or do we need to enable CD again for when adj` hosts his seminar tonight? __________________ --T3C[]-[]N0 []v[]UFF1N The vending machine originated in Egypt in 215 B.C. Learn somethin new everyday, dontcha?

09-17-2004, 08:35 PM	#13 (permalink)
Lt.Asher Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cheyenne,Wy Age: 25 Posts: 81	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional Ya know... I wanted to beleave this would work. I wanted to beleave that no-cd would bring more people and eventually better players. But it's not. I haven't had a single enjoyable game where I'm not telling someone to do something (mostly shooting at ceilings or res whoring). We pay (I'll be joining as a paying member soon nuff) to become full members because we enjoy and support this server and want it to stay at the highest level enjoyment/intregrity that are to our levels and this is not possable without CD-Req. __________________ Though much is taken, much abides; and though We are not now that strength which in old days Moved heaven and earth, that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

09-17-2004, 08:42 PM	#14 (permalink)
_Ender_ Join Date: May 2003 Location: I am lost, if you know where I am then please feel free to tell me. Age: 29 Posts: 2,048	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional I know what game you're talking about and no I couldnt have. An admin was on the server which made me lose my admin powers. When he left, I never got them back. My take on cd optional is this. It sucks. I've been playing all day and I havent had a good game (Well there was one CO game). They have all been filled with half ass teams which always get their asses kicked by the other team (With all the regs and admins on it), and with people who just refuse to commincate with anything. So far I have (as a temp admin) had to kick at least a half a dozen people today just for not communicating. I dont mind stepping up and being an admin, but when I'm forced to either deal with the non-communitive SOBs or kick my entire team I get fruestrated. When I get fruestrated I ask myself why am I even playing. Muffy, you should of asked me for help. I would of helped you kick a lot of those players. I wouldnt of gotten on your case about finishing it faster, but from the sounds of it, it was just as fruestrating on my team as it must of have been on yours.

09-17-2004, 08:46 PM	#15 (permalink)
Lt.Asher Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cheyenne,Wy Age: 25 Posts: 81	Re: admins (and now temp admins) make CD optional Here's the biggest problem with letting total n00bs in. None of us are. A lot of you may be going "DUH". But you can't mix higher and lower tiers. It won't work. There needs to be a minimum level of skill that we accecpt. When half your team can be soloed by one person it makes life a lot harder. Escpially on the comm. It is not fair to either team to make them teach brand new recruits. If you want to set aside one night for "newbie tuesday" or whatever that will work. But we want to play and under the current conditions it doens't work. __________________ Though much is taken, much abides; and though We are not now that strength which in old days Moved heaven and earth, that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

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