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Discussion: Natural Selection / Natural Selection - General Discussion - note about unchained - Originally Posted by NemesisZero
Unchained chambers are certainly a solution, but the question is whether
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09-29-2004, 01:06 PM #1
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note about unchained
Hated to hear that. The NS devs are an incredible bunch, and I have no love for unchained beyond the superb job it does addressing the monotony of the way most Classic NS games just drool all over the alien tech tree, and I'd happily abandon unchained in favor of the dev's solution to that problem (if/when they create one) if it creates as much fun as does unchained.
Originally Posted by NemesisZero
I just hope they ... well ... two things.. I hope they don't create a solution less innovative, less fun, and more complicated than unchained, and I hope they don't, intentionally or otherwise, make a change to the game that in some way renders unchained unavailable from even a third-party standpoint.
And, to be honest, as I read that last sentence, the first thing that comes to mind is the removal of the sparks.Steam Community? Add me. | Join #tacticalgamer | Search Results Legend | New Posts Forum Filter | Postbox Toggle | Live Thread Review | One Line Results | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup
Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.
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09-29-2004, 01:37 PM #2
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Re: note about unchained
If and when an alien option becomes available that allows gameplay to be more varied and less monotonous, then yes, I will also happily abandon unchained. A critical part of any RTS is *choice* in your tech tree, not just the tech tree being there. Yes, NS is going to favor more FPS elements, because Half-life is not capable of handling enough elements to truely add a full RTS side of the game, thats something that is going to have to wait until NS2.
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09-29-2004, 01:38 PM #3
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Re: note about unchained
I think unchained is absolutely great because it brings variety to the game. Not everyone has to go regen / carapace for first upgrade and it really allows more strategies to be used by the aliens. I personally think it'd be hard for them to do anything with the current system that would be worth going back to chained. It's just not something I can easily see them balancing to break the DMS standard that everyone does. Maybe if they completely re-did how Aliens acquired upgrades, but...I somehow doubt we'd see that. At least in this incarnation of Natural Selection.
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09-29-2004, 01:49 PM #4
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Re: note about unchained
Maybe a mix of the two could work. For example chain the first chamber dropped (ie. dcs) to the hive, however allow other types of chambers to be dropped. The aliens will not be able to get upgrades from the other chambers (only dc upgrades) until the next hive, however they will benefit from the effects of the chambers. This way you can still benefit from cloaking and movement between hives (and adrenaline regeneration).
It doesn't really satisfy either side (those who want unchained and those who don't) but I doubt a solution will arise that will please both parties. Just a little something that popped into my head after reading this hehe. I hope the dev team comes up with something radical which pleases everyone.
This idea probably wouldn't break the DMS standard though so blah.
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09-29-2004, 02:50 PM #5
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Re: note about unchained
I think removing the alien's de facto tech tree is a stroke of genius myself. As it is, it's exactly what NZ called it: rudimentary. It's a shell of a tech tree that's essentially forced on players due to the issues caused with non-DMS setups.
Removing it takes a yoke off of the aliens that allows them freedom (but not too much, as the extra chambers still cost money,as do the now oh-so-appealing movement and sensory upgrades), and in my mind at least, is a natural answer to the powerful passive upgrades of the marines.
Heck, the management of resources (which is what any good RTS is truly about, not some silly tech tree) is MORE strategic than with chained chambers. When you have more to spend your money on, WHAT you spend your money on becomes that much more important.
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09-29-2004, 04:05 PM #6
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Re: note about unchained
I totally and completely agree. I was going to say something about this, but didn't know how to word it (pick up your jaw.. it happens, ok?).
I think that a linear tech tree is something that's stamped in our minds due to precedent. I think the freedom and independence that unchained offers strategy, on both sides, creates rich depth for gameplay for both sides, as opposed to somehow removing from an overly-guarded linear tech tree.Steam Community? Add me. | Join #tacticalgamer | Search Results Legend | New Posts Forum Filter | Postbox Toggle | Live Thread Review | One Line Results | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup
Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.
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09-29-2004, 05:01 PM #7
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Re: note about unchained
We have to keep in mind at all times that what we want to do and what we can do are two totally opposite things.
Are there better ways to go about the aliens tech tree other then un-chained? I'd definitly say yes. Are they viable under the restrinctions of the HL engine? Possibly not. I think NS really pushes the limits of the engine and to say "We want X,Y,Z" but the Engine can only support up to W well.. you see the problem. We could take 2 steps backwords, re-work, and pray that the steps forward come out with "as advertised" fixes but in all honestly... if Un-chained isn't broken then why fix it?
I think the Devs are a bit too resistant here and I'm not sure why. Maybe because they haven't seen us in action?
But it seems to me that if your going to grant marines the freedom of which tech tree to persue with only Res to limit them, the same option should be granted to the Aliens.
Just my two cents
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09-29-2004, 05:42 PM #8
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Re: note about unchained
Along with the SG spread problem(off center) and Hitbox lag problems that is directly related to crappy Ns ded server performance which they ignore plus a few others that have yet come to mind. Originally Posted by Wyzcrak
NS devs are just as good as they are stubbern.
*edit* I remember another
1 min delay on Res noise, but yet you can still hear skulks spawn and run around.
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09-29-2004, 05:56 PM #9
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Re: note about unchained
I get your point, but I'm not sure stubborn is the term I'd use for ALL of those delays... maybe a few, but not all. You have to keep in mind that it is a LOT of work that these people are doing.. sometimes two and five times (as is the nature of software development, much less game design), most without any financial compensation whatsoever. There are so many hours in the days.
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Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.
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09-29-2004, 06:39 PM #10
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Re: note about unchained
Its one thing to do something, its another not to do it fully. (crude word would be half-assed) Im not coming down on the mod as its great but nothing great has been happening since Cagey and Charlie have left the mod.
Wyz they have more programmers now than they ever had, yet..........
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09-29-2004, 06:45 PM #11
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Re: note about unchained
I wasn't aware that the number of programmers had changed significantly. I can agree with you that there remains room for improvement in the implementation of some of their design decisions.
Steam Community? Add me. | Join #tacticalgamer | Search Results Legend | New Posts Forum Filter | Postbox Toggle | Live Thread Review | One Line Results | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup
Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.
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09-29-2004, 09:39 PM #12
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Re: note about unchained
Saw this thread in I&S which I think is a nice compromise between the two schools of thought, and added my own lengthy oppinion and idea on the second page.
Check it out.Filled with Awesome.
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09-30-2004, 03:50 AM #13
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Re: note about unchained
I'm up for the different levels of upgrading having a larger role, but quite clearly, they will have to be altered significantly. The only L1 upgrade worth having is cloaking, and possibly focus.
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The vending machine originated in Egypt in 215 B.C. Learn somethin new everyday, dontcha?
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09-30-2004, 10:11 AM #14
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Re: note about unchained
The problem with unchained chambers is that in a competitive environment, we'd be back to 2.01, when it was pretty much impossible for marines to win. When I think about unchained chambers in a match I'm horrified, because aliens would be unbeatable. I'd have to have armor1 and an obs quickly to deal with sensory, and motion would be worthless against silence because of the sensories. Then fades appear with cara or regen. It would be a hopeless situation that would be unwinnable against an alien team with a clue.
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09-30-2004, 10:51 AM #15
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Re: note about unchained
That's not a problem with unchained, if you'll notice. That's a problem with marine tech. And it can be corrected with, I might think, less effort than several alternatives when implementing fun on the level that unchained implements. I would think the onus shouldn't be on the modified alien tech tree to change just because it offers more excitement despite having been discovered after the marine tech tree. I mean, I'm not saying balance is a one-way road... if unchained were to be incorporated into the game, I'm sure tweaks would happen on both sides of the fight, but I'd hate to see it "ruled out" just because it "interferes" with the present design of the marine tree.
Beyond that, I get your point.Steam Community? Add me. | Join #tacticalgamer | Search Results Legend | New Posts Forum Filter | Postbox Toggle | Live Thread Review | One Line Results | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup
Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Zephyr: Apophis is clearly a highly sophisticated self-aware AI construct that runs on a highly modified toaster oven in Wyzcrak's basement.
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