CO: respawn ticket system - Page 3

**Wyzcrak** · 10-04-2004, 03:22 AM

Many thanks to the people who helped me test tonight. To be able to charge a ticket cost for something (even if that cost is configured to 0), it must be tracked during the gameplay.

Just about everything you could imagine with regard to upgrades or abilities is now tracked by this plugin. Should the server operator so choose, various costs can be applied to each variable during gameplay.

Here is my list of what presently is not working:

being webbed :
- I can successfully track when an alien is "in" primalscream or "in" umbra, but the same code doesn't (yet) work for tracking when a marine is "in" webs.

scan area, catalysts, & resupply
- I cannot presently successfully track whether or not a marine has these upgrades (motiontracking works). I'm told that it is possible but will be very difficult. I'm not sure yet if I'll be able to make this happen in the near future.

hive abilities:
- This one's tricky. Presently, aliens are charged for all three hive abilities regardless of how many (1 or 2 ; just hive2 OR both hive2/hive3) they have "purchased" with levels. That's because my code works by checking to see if they're carrying a certain weapon. As it turns out, this works reliably for marines (weapon_grenadegun, weapon_heavymachinegun) but not for aliens (weapon_leap, weapon_bilebombgun). If you're a skulk, you're "carrying" weapon_divinewind, regardless of whether you have hive3 abilities researched in CO. I'm told that there is a workaround for this, and I plan on learning about it this week.

Emanon · 10-04-2004, 05:09 PM

There is a plugin on modns.org that makes the CC invul. It was made to move the CC off the map but instead it just made the damn thing invul. Take a look at that code and see if it give you any ideas.

**Wyzcrak** · 10-04-2004, 07:05 PM

Yeah, the problem with that is that I can't track damage if I make it invulnerable. I don't want the CC (or hive) to become completely irrelevant to gameplay, at least not within the context of the spawn ticket playmode.

jackel · 10-04-2004, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

Yeah, the problem with that is that I can't track damage if I make it invulnerable. I don't want the CC (or hive) to become completely irrelevant to gameplay, at least not within the context of the spawn ticket playmode.

So, the CC/hive become a EXP dispencer?
i mean, if they dont die.. aliens or marine will eat or shoot it and just get more and more exp without the game ending. So now you have super marine or super aliens.

correct me if i am not understanding your point..

Stupid · 10-04-2004, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackel

So, the CC/hive become a EXP dispencer?
i mean, if they dont die.. aliens or marine will eat or shoot it and just get more and more exp without the game ending. So now you have super marine or super aliens.

correct me if i am not understanding your point..

That is the point - it's what I asked for.

**Wyzcrak** · 10-05-2004, 06:40 PM

Well, what I'm saying is that I basically have only three options:

1. Make the structures invulnerable. They'll never die and the game will not give them experience when they attack them. This is not something I want.

2. Remove the structures from the map. This is not something I want.

3. Leave the structures as they are, accepting the fact that their destruction ends the round regardless of tickets. I don't want this, but it's the best of the three options (although option 2 runs a close second?).

**Wyzcrak** · 10-05-2004, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

scan area, catalysts, & resupply
I cannot presently successfully track whether or not a marine has these upgrades
.
.
.
hive abilities:
Presently, aliens are charged for all three hive abilities regardless of how many they have "purchased" with levels.

I have discovered a fix for these issues and will be addressing them soon, most likely this evening.

DON.MAC · 10-05-2004, 07:43 PM

What about the issue of uneven teams? Especially in small games (neglecting the skill differences between players) an extra player can make quite a difference. Would it make sense to have a multiplier to offset any difference in the number of players on each team? 7v6 would be much less of a concern than 2v1 or 3v2, so I was thinking along the lines of the difference between teams divided by the average team size plus one.

abs(Marines - Aliens)
-------------------- + 1
((Marines + Aliens)/2)

Does this sound like a possibility, or is this even an issue worth consideration?

**Wyzcrak** · 10-05-2004, 07:58 PM

In order to address the problem of extra an player making "quite a difference", I need to know why an extra player makes that difference.

It may sound like a stupid question, but I need to know what really creates the problem before I can really address it.

Moi allo · 10-05-2004, 09:02 PM

I really like the new ticket plugin i think it makes better co games good job Wyzcrak!

jackel · 10-05-2004, 09:04 PM

First, what is wrong with item one?
That way, players can only get their exp from things they do on the map. Killing others.. (was going to say healing the hive, but no that doesnt work)
ANd, is it possible to make the number of tickets per team reflect on the number of teammates on the team?
Say if you had 1-3 people you'd get 600 tickets, 4-6 800, 6-10 1000
These obviously are just examples for the number of ppl and tickets, but just an idea

DON.MAC · 10-05-2004, 09:11 PM

A team with an extra player will be able to inflict and sustain more damage than the opposing team. By having more targets and more sources of damage the team with more players will be more likely to win exchanges between teams and get more kills. Players with above average skill may reverse the situation and kill off the enemies despite the advantage in numbers, but such players could just as easily be on the larger team.

In a 2v1 game, if all three players face off at once, the lone player would generally have to deal twice as much damage to stay even with the other team while taking twice as much damage. Even if all the battles are 1v1, the lone player will face twice the encounters of the other players and be similarly disadvantaged. Also, the larger team will be able to more easily attack the CC/hive while it is undefended. This is all assuming the players are of equal skill.

In an 8v7 game the difference is probably too small to notice game by game because the extra player makes up a much smaller percentage of the team, but if you take the results of many such games I think you would see the 8 player teams winning more often.

It is my belief that, in games where the extra player makes up a large percentage of his/her team, the larger team will have a significant advantage. With the ticket system I think this advantage can be countered to make smaller games more balanced and enjoyable. Skill differences between players can make just as much, or even more of a difference, but this factor can't really be remedied without automatic team switching (which would be VERY annoying). Statisticly, differences in skill will even out over many games, but the advantage of numbers won't.

Does this sound reasonable?

Zek · 10-05-2004, 09:53 PM

After playing a couple co games tonight, I don't like the latest ticket system(large numbers, more points lost with upgrades), for two reasons:

1.) It's too ugly and complicated. K.I.S.S. Ticket numbers that large are very difficult to wrap your head around; it makes things much less practical and in general is just an unappealing way to handle things.
2.) Upgrades being worth tickets creates a number of issues. First of all, it penalizes players for taking levels that don't directly improve their survivability, which means it's often better not to buy anything later in the game than to spend your points on weaker upgrades. Second, it puts the winning team in a situation where they lose tickets way faster than they should, which gives the losing team a larger chance of coming back than they probably deserve. Third, it just contributes to the confusion of this system as people lose track of how many tickets they're worth, and superskulks don't understand just how much each of their deaths hurts the team.

We should go back to small-ish ticket totals, and costs being based exclusively on species/HA/JP. Everything just works much cleaner that way.

**Wyzcrak** · 10-06-2004, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zek

Ticket numbers that large ... makes things much less practical and in general is just an unappealing way to handle things.

It only makes it less practical if the larger numbers provide no value to the overall experience. I think they add value to the experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zek

2.) Upgrades being worth tickets creates a number of issues. First of all, it penalizes players for taking levels that don't directly improve their survivability, which means it's often better not to buy anything later in the game than to spend your points on weaker upgrades. Second, it puts the winning team in a situation where they lose tickets way faster than they should, which gives the losing team a larger chance of coming back than they probably deserve.

If anyone is going to take CO seriously on any level, decision accountability will eventually have to show its face. I don't know of an upgrade in CO which, when used properly and within the context of your opposition's tech, doesn't directly improve my survivability. If I see weaker upgrades, maybe I need to "upgrade the application" of that upgrade, not the upgrade itself. Or perhaps a more creative integration of that upgrade's offerings into my team's effort would be helpful.

If by winning you mean "preserving tickets more effectively," I don't see how, when considering my above solution to "weaker" upgrades, the winning team is suddenly going to start losing tickets faster due to anything other than decisions and skill of the players on the ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zek

Third, it just contributes to the confusion of this system as people lose track of how many tickets they're worth, and superskulks don't understand just how much each of their deaths hurts the team.

Something we can agree to as problematic: players don't know how much their death hurts their team until their team has already paid the price. I could add to the display a count of tickets that you'll count the team when you die. Perhaps the display could also show a multiple of that present count in order to give players an appreciation for their cost of several deaths.

**Wyzcrak** · 10-06-2004, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DON.MAC

Does this sound reasonable?

It has my attention, at the very least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DON.MAC

Would it make sense to have a multiplier to offset any difference in the number of players on each team?

Are you suggesting we apply a [team balance] multiplier to the [ticket count] multiplier? It could make good sense.

Let's take an example:

7 marines
8 aliens

Although they can be set independently, both teams presently have a multiplier of 130. This multiplier is applied to the number of players in the game, which is 15 (in truth, it's presently 16, but that's because it's counting HLTV, which is unintended and will be fixed). The resulting number of tickets (130x15=1950) is given to both teams at round start.

If I understand your proposition correctly, the advantage enjoyed by the smaller team is influenced both by the number of players in the game AND the population difference between the two teams. To quote Mr. Brancaccio, "let's do the numbers..."

7 marines
8 aliens
Marine multiplier: ((1/7.5)+1)*130 = 147
Alien multiplier: 1*130 = 130

For a 7v8, this would result in the following ticket count for each team at round start:
Marine Tickets: 2205
Alien Tickets: 1950
Smaller team starts with an 11% advantage ((2205-1950)/2205).

For a 3v4, the numbers turn out like this:
Marine Tickets: 1170
Alien Tickets: 910
Smaller team starts with a 22% advantage ((1170-910)/1170).

For a 1v2, the numbers turn out like this:
Marine Tickets: 650
Alien Tickets: 390
Smaller team starts with a 40% advantage ((650-390)/650).

For a 1v3 (very unlikely since our mp_limitteams is 1), the numbers turn out like this:
Marine Tickets: 1040
Alien Tickets: 520
Smaller team starts with a 50% advantage ((1040-520)/1040).

For a 6v8, the numbers turn out like this (notice similarity to the 3v4 advantage):
Marine Tickets: 2305
Alien Tickets: 1820
Smaller team starts with a 22% advantage ((2305-1820)/2305).

Is this advantage, in isolation and without assistance from other balancing factors, more helpful than it is harmful?

Discuss.

10-04-2004, 03:22 AM	#31 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: CO: respawn ticket system Many thanks to the people who helped me test tonight. To be able to charge a ticket cost for something (even if that cost is configured to 0), it must be tracked during the gameplay. Just about everything you could imagine with regard to upgrades or abilities is now tracked by this plugin. Should the server operator so choose, various costs can be applied to each variable during gameplay. Here is my list of what presently is not working: being webbed : - I can successfully track when an alien is "in" primalscream or "in" umbra, but the same code doesn't (yet) work for tracking when a marine is "in" webs. scan area, catalysts, & resupply - I cannot presently successfully track whether or not a marine has these upgrades (motiontracking works). I'm told that it is possible but will be very difficult. I'm not sure yet if I'll be able to make this happen in the near future. hive abilities: - This one's tricky. Presently, aliens are charged for all three hive abilities regardless of how many (1 or 2 ; just hive2 OR both hive2/hive3) they have "purchased" with levels. That's because my code works by checking to see if they're carrying a certain weapon. As it turns out, this works reliably for marines (weapon_grenadegun, weapon_heavymachinegun) but not for aliens (weapon_leap, weapon_bilebombgun). If you're a skulk, you're "carrying" weapon_divinewind, regardless of whether you have hive3 abilities researched in CO. I'm told that there is a workaround for this, and I plan on learning about it this week. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

10-04-2004, 05:09 PM	#32 (permalink)
Emanon Banned Join Date: May 2003 Age: 25 Posts: 1,249	Re: CO: respawn ticket system There is a plugin on modns.org that makes the CC invul. It was made to move the CC off the map but instead it just made the damn thing invul. Take a look at that code and see if it give you any ideas.

10-04-2004, 07:05 PM	#33 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: CO: respawn ticket system Yeah, the problem with that is that I can't track damage if I make it invulnerable. I don't want the CC (or hive) to become completely irrelevant to gameplay, at least not within the context of the spawn ticket playmode. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

10-05-2004, 06:40 PM	#36 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: CO: respawn ticket system Well, what I'm saying is that I basically have only three options: 1. Make the structures invulnerable. They'll never die and the game will not give them experience when they attack them. This is not something I want. 2. Remove the structures from the map. This is not something I want. 3. Leave the structures as they are, accepting the fact that their destruction ends the round regardless of tickets. I don't want this, but it's the best of the three options (although option 2 runs a close second?). __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

10-05-2004, 07:43 PM	#38 (permalink)
DON.MAC Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 162	Re: CO: respawn ticket system What about the issue of uneven teams? Especially in small games (neglecting the skill differences between players) an extra player can make quite a difference. Would it make sense to have a multiplier to offset any difference in the number of players on each team? 7v6 would be much less of a concern than 2v1 or 3v2, so I was thinking along the lines of the difference between teams divided by the average team size plus one. abs(Marines - Aliens) -------------------- + 1 ((Marines + Aliens)/2) Does this sound like a possibility, or is this even an issue worth consideration?

10-05-2004, 07:58 PM	#39 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: CO: respawn ticket system In order to address the problem of extra an player making "quite a difference", I need to know why an extra player makes that difference. It may sound like a stupid question, but I need to know what really creates the problem before I can really address it. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

10-05-2004, 09:02 PM	#40 (permalink)
Moi allo Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada Age: 20 Posts: 8	Re: CO: respawn ticket system I really like the new ticket plugin i think it makes better co games good job Wyzcrak! __________________ There's an Evil Fade in Cargo

10-05-2004, 09:04 PM	#41 (permalink)
jackel Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 815	Re: CO: respawn ticket system First, what is wrong with item one? That way, players can only get their exp from things they do on the map. Killing others.. (was going to say healing the hive, but no that doesnt work) ANd, is it possible to make the number of tickets per team reflect on the number of teammates on the team? Say if you had 1-3 people you'd get 600 tickets, 4-6 800, 6-10 1000 These obviously are just examples for the number of ppl and tickets, but just an idea

10-05-2004, 09:11 PM	#42 (permalink)
DON.MAC Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 162	Re: CO: respawn ticket system A team with an extra player will be able to inflict and sustain more damage than the opposing team. By having more targets and more sources of damage the team with more players will be more likely to win exchanges between teams and get more kills. Players with above average skill may reverse the situation and kill off the enemies despite the advantage in numbers, but such players could just as easily be on the larger team. In a 2v1 game, if all three players face off at once, the lone player would generally have to deal twice as much damage to stay even with the other team while taking twice as much damage. Even if all the battles are 1v1, the lone player will face twice the encounters of the other players and be similarly disadvantaged. Also, the larger team will be able to more easily attack the CC/hive while it is undefended. This is all assuming the players are of equal skill. In an 8v7 game the difference is probably too small to notice game by game because the extra player makes up a much smaller percentage of the team, but if you take the results of many such games I think you would see the 8 player teams winning more often. It is my belief that, in games where the extra player makes up a large percentage of his/her team, the larger team will have a significant advantage. With the ticket system I think this advantage can be countered to make smaller games more balanced and enjoyable. Skill differences between players can make just as much, or even more of a difference, but this factor can't really be remedied without automatic team switching (which would be VERY annoying). Statisticly, differences in skill will even out over many games, but the advantage of numbers won't. Does this sound reasonable?

10-05-2004, 09:53 PM	#43 (permalink)
Zek Join Date: Jun 2003 Age: 21 Posts: 597	Re: CO: respawn ticket system After playing a couple co games tonight, I don't like the latest ticket system(large numbers, more points lost with upgrades), for two reasons: 1.) It's too ugly and complicated. K.I.S.S. Ticket numbers that large are very difficult to wrap your head around; it makes things much less practical and in general is just an unappealing way to handle things. 2.) Upgrades being worth tickets creates a number of issues. First of all, it penalizes players for taking levels that don't directly improve their survivability, which means it's often better not to buy anything later in the game than to spend your points on weaker upgrades. Second, it puts the winning team in a situation where they lose tickets way faster than they should, which gives the losing team a larger chance of coming back than they probably deserve. Third, it just contributes to the confusion of this system as people lose track of how many tickets they're worth, and superskulks don't understand just how much each of their deaths hurts the team. We should go back to small-ish ticket totals, and costs being based exclusively on species/HA/JP. Everything just works much cleaner that way.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
It's OUT!	Magnum50	America's Army - General Discussion	19	09-17-2006 09:52 PM
Taking the leap... first PC build	Mirfee	Hardware & Software Discussion	37	07-02-2006 09:25 PM
Ticket system explained?	Tempus

Sponsored links

Sponsored links

Sponsored links

Sponsored links