CO: respawn ticket system - Page 4

Stupid · 10-06-2004, 02:06 AM

I vote helpful - it gives the smaller team a few more deaths in order to establish themselves at the round start. It gets balanced out in the higher levels of the larger team (on average). Over time, the ticket count will follow the more skilled team, regardless of team size - but it does take a smaller team a little bit more to get started. The larger team will, on average, have the lower ranked "fodder" player that keeps the skill levels even across the team. Witness the "levels" plugin for late joiners and people that aren't keeping up.

**Wyzcrak** · 10-06-2004, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

scan area, catalysts, & resupply
I cannot presently successfully track whether or not a marine has these upgrades
.
.
.
hive abilities:
Presently, aliens are charged for all three hive abilities regardless of how many they have "purchased" with levels.

I have discovered a fix for these issues and will be addressing them soon, most likely this evening.

I have corrected these issues.

Scan area, cat packs, resupply, and each of the ten upgraded hive abilities are now individually, successfully, and accurately tracked, each with an independently-configurable cost.

Emanon · 10-06-2004, 10:16 AM

So when is the release date?

**Wyzcrak** · 10-06-2004, 11:57 AM

When it's done.

**Wyzcrak** · 10-06-2004, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackel

First, what is wrong with item one?
That way, players can only get their exp from things they do on the map. Killing others.. (was going to say healing the hive, but no that doesnt work)
ANd, is it possible to make the number of tickets per team reflect on the number of teammates on the team?
Say if you had 1-3 people you'd get 600 tickets, 4-6 800, 6-10 1000
These obviously are just examples for the number of ppl and tickets, but just an idea

Well, maybe it's unfounded, but I've always had this creepy feeling that the spawn ticket system could be shot down by folks who see it as a proponent of spawn camping. It seems to me that removing the structures from gameplay (and/or from the map) would only give those people ammunition, as it removes one of the few ways to end the round when you're dominating.

Regarding the tickets reflecting team size, feel free to contribute to this thread's conversation about our plans there.

Polska · 10-06-2004, 05:39 PM

I personally could care less about the initial ticket amount (balancing when teams are uneven). Mainly because..... it's combat :P. Other may feel differently.

When the game is 2v1, 3v1, 3v2 I don't think you should worry about balance in terms of ticket numbers because lets face it, those games won't ever be balanced. On the other hand larger games where its 7v6 or 8v7 I dont think an extra player makes that much of a difference in the long run.

That's just my personal opinion, and I am not a big fan of combat in general, so I don't really see the point of messing with the ticket numbers. Maybe in more extreme cases like 4v1 that would be an issue, but that would never (or should never) happen. It comes down more to individual skills of the players then an extra player here or there.

I do enjoy the plugin, but I just don't see the point of making it so complex (I know you want perfection as a programmer wyz :P). I guess it just doesn't really matter to me because im not hung up on victories in combat games (as opposed to drilling my team in ns).

**Pokerface** · 10-06-2004, 06:03 PM

I would like Xenocide to not cost tickets. If this has already been corrected, please ignore me as you usually would.

**Wyzcrak** · 10-06-2004, 07:12 PM

I must stress something: presently, I am satisfied that everything that CAN cost tickets DOES cost tickets, and ONLY when you HAVE that something. The problems of people being charged for things they didn't have, or not being charged for things they did have, are gone.

What remains, and what has YET to be addressed seriously, is COST BALANCE. This is a completely different beast. Only now, with confidence in the fact that we're being accurately and reliably charged for upgrades/abilities can we begin to discuss balance when it comes to how much different things cost.

Many of the values I attributed to certain things (including fade@15 and parasited@5) were 100% arbitrary, and some values were determined with no other objective in mind than making the value unique from something else I was testing at the time.

Moving forward, we'll use this thread to discuss cot balance.

Let's start with lifeforms (classes).

skulk
gorge
lerk
fade
onos
marine
jetpack
heavyarmor

What should they cost?

Zek · 10-06-2004, 10:38 PM

Let me give you an example of what I was talking about earlier. Last night we played a combat game on co_pulse. The aliens were defending the vicinity of their hive for the majority of the game, but the marines never posed a serious threat to the hive and the aliens were clearly winning the game(and would have won with the time limit). Marines were usually a couple hundred tickets below the aliens throughout the game. However, most of the alien team remained skulks, whereas the marines started going HA. Even with minimal use of higher lifeforms the aliens retained their advantage, but the tickets told a different story; aliens were losing tickets fast as skulks went down in successfully defending the hive. When the marines eventually hit zero tickets, most of the HAs were still alive and the aliens were at about 100 tickets. In a handful of skulk deaths, both teams couldn't spawn and all the marines had to do was sit back, weld up and fight off skulks and they won the game even though they never really had the advantage up until that point.

The point to that story is that even though the aliens clearly had the upper hand, they lost tickets at a disproportionately fast speed later in the game because each of their skulks were worth 20+ tickets. Superskulks are no longer efficient because taking upgrades eventually doubles their ticket cost without really improving their lifespan enough to compensate. We would have been better off at lower levels in that game.

Simply put, I just don't see a compelling reason to penalize players for having a lot of upgrades. What was wrong with the system we had before? Why do we need to penalize the alien team for not evolving, if they can win the game with only skulks?

jackel · 10-06-2004, 10:53 PM

1.maybe you should only be charged for say 3 upgrades?
2.or, maybe only the more important ones, ie focas

3.focas shouldnt go one w/o a cost, it is TOO powerfull to be free. maybe they should all be free with the exception of focas.. or just cheaper.

4.oorr, upgrades cost different ammounts of points for different life forms.

Regen for a skulk and gorge and lerk costs 2, however for fades and onos, it costs 4.
THis is saying that the skulks, gorges, and lerks will die more often, so they shouldnt be fully penalized. Unlike the higher lifeforms, which them being higher life forms should be able to make a equal or more than equal dent into the marine ticket count before dying and using up the tickets for their own team.

(i like number 4 the most..)

Zek · 10-06-2004, 10:57 PM

When we start getting into things like that, it just makes things even more needlessly complicated. The fine-tuning involved in getting a system like this to work properly is daunting, and the actual benefits to doing so are vague at best. The most important question we have to ask ourselves is, was there a problem with the first system severe enough to justify all these convoluted fixes?

**Wyzcrak** · 10-07-2004, 12:11 AM

I understand your concern Zek. Lay out your vision of what costs what, and what doesn't cost anything.

Zek · 10-07-2004, 08:19 AM

Skulks and LAs cost 1. Higher lifeforms, JPs, HAs, and maybe guns increase the ticket cost. Everything else doesn't.

**Wyzcrak** · 10-07-2004, 11:09 AM

To give the other powerful traits (spores, umbra, acidrocket, stomp) no value is to say that they have negligible potency in gameplay, is it not? That seems like an awfully limiting position, it seems. I mean, your team is going to lose if you're frivolous with your onos investment. Why should the same not be true of your webs investment, although by design to a lesser extent? Are not webs to some degree powerful and gameplay-changing?

Zek · 10-07-2004, 05:02 PM

No, it's saying that not every single advantage given to one team or another needs to be counter-balanced by ticket costs. Combat is just a quick and simple deathmatch game at its roots, and trying to force the teams to carefully weigh the advantages and disadvantages of every single upgrade is pointless. It seems that the only issue you had with upgrades not costing tickets was a conceptual thing, rather than practical. If a simple and clean system like what we had before works fine, why needlessly bog it down with all these details and rules and exceptions?

10-06-2004, 02:06 AM	#46 (permalink)
Stupid Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: God's Country - Texas Posts: 637	Re: CO: respawn ticket system I vote helpful - it gives the smaller team a few more deaths in order to establish themselves at the round start. It gets balanced out in the higher levels of the larger team (on average). Over time, the ticket count will follow the more skilled team, regardless of team size - but it does take a smaller team a little bit more to get started. The larger team will, on average, have the lower ranked "fodder" player that keeps the skill levels even across the team. Witness the "levels" plugin for late joiners and people that aren't keeping up. __________________ Former TGNS admin until WoW blinded me with flashy lights.

10-06-2004, 10:16 AM	#48 (permalink)
Emanon Banned Join Date: May 2003 Age: 25 Posts: 1,249	Re: CO: respawn ticket system So when is the release date?

10-06-2004, 11:57 AM	#49 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: CO: respawn ticket system When it's done. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

10-06-2004, 05:39 PM	#51 (permalink)
Polska Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Age: 26 Posts: 716	Re: CO: respawn ticket system I personally could care less about the initial ticket amount (balancing when teams are uneven). Mainly because..... it's combat :P. Other may feel differently. When the game is 2v1, 3v1, 3v2 I don't think you should worry about balance in terms of ticket numbers because lets face it, those games won't ever be balanced. On the other hand larger games where its 7v6 or 8v7 I dont think an extra player makes that much of a difference in the long run. That's just my personal opinion, and I am not a big fan of combat in general, so I don't really see the point of messing with the ticket numbers. Maybe in more extreme cases like 4v1 that would be an issue, but that would never (or should never) happen. It comes down more to individual skills of the players then an extra player here or there. I do enjoy the plugin, but I just don't see the point of making it so complex (I know you want perfection as a programmer wyz :P). I guess it just doesn't really matter to me because im not hung up on victories in combat games (as opposed to drilling my team in ns). __________________ I love gaming, mmmmmmmm

10-06-2004, 06:03 PM	#52 (permalink)
Pokerface Join Date: May 2003 Location: MD, USA Age: 30 Posts: 5,787	Re: CO: respawn ticket system I would like Xenocide to not cost tickets. If this has already been corrected, please ignore me as you usually would. __________________ NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues. Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality. <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

10-06-2004, 07:12 PM	#53 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: CO: respawn ticket system I must stress something: presently, I am satisfied that everything that CAN cost tickets DOES cost tickets, and ONLY when you HAVE that something. The problems of people being charged for things they didn't have, or not being charged for things they did have, are gone. What remains, and what has YET to be addressed seriously, is COST BALANCE. This is a completely different beast. Only now, with confidence in the fact that we're being accurately and reliably charged for upgrades/abilities can we begin to discuss balance when it comes to how much different things cost. Many of the values I attributed to certain things (including fade@15 and parasited@5) were 100% arbitrary, and some values were determined with no other objective in mind than making the value unique from something else I was testing at the time. Moving forward, we'll use this thread to discuss cot balance. Let's start with lifeforms (classes). skulk gorge lerk fade onos marine jetpack heavyarmor What should they cost? __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

10-06-2004, 10:38 PM	#54 (permalink)
Zek Join Date: Jun 2003 Age: 21 Posts: 597	Re: CO: respawn ticket system Let me give you an example of what I was talking about earlier. Last night we played a combat game on co_pulse. The aliens were defending the vicinity of their hive for the majority of the game, but the marines never posed a serious threat to the hive and the aliens were clearly winning the game(and would have won with the time limit). Marines were usually a couple hundred tickets below the aliens throughout the game. However, most of the alien team remained skulks, whereas the marines started going HA. Even with minimal use of higher lifeforms the aliens retained their advantage, but the tickets told a different story; aliens were losing tickets fast as skulks went down in successfully defending the hive. When the marines eventually hit zero tickets, most of the HAs were still alive and the aliens were at about 100 tickets. In a handful of skulk deaths, both teams couldn't spawn and all the marines had to do was sit back, weld up and fight off skulks and they won the game even though they never really had the advantage up until that point. The point to that story is that even though the aliens clearly had the upper hand, they lost tickets at a disproportionately fast speed later in the game because each of their skulks were worth 20+ tickets. Superskulks are no longer efficient because taking upgrades eventually doubles their ticket cost without really improving their lifespan enough to compensate. We would have been better off at lower levels in that game. Simply put, I just don't see a compelling reason to penalize players for having a lot of upgrades. What was wrong with the system we had before? Why do we need to penalize the alien team for not evolving, if they can win the game with only skulks?

10-06-2004, 10:53 PM	#55 (permalink)
jackel Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 815	Re: CO: respawn ticket system 1.maybe you should only be charged for say 3 upgrades? 2.or, maybe only the more important ones, ie focas 3.focas shouldnt go one w/o a cost, it is TOO powerfull to be free. maybe they should all be free with the exception of focas.. or just cheaper. 4.oorr, upgrades cost different ammounts of points for different life forms. Regen for a skulk and gorge and lerk costs 2, however for fades and onos, it costs 4. THis is saying that the skulks, gorges, and lerks will die more often, so they shouldnt be fully penalized. Unlike the higher lifeforms, which them being higher life forms should be able to make a equal or more than equal dent into the marine ticket count before dying and using up the tickets for their own team. (i like number 4 the most..)

10-06-2004, 10:57 PM	#56 (permalink)
Zek Join Date: Jun 2003 Age: 21 Posts: 597	Re: CO: respawn ticket system When we start getting into things like that, it just makes things even more needlessly complicated. The fine-tuning involved in getting a system like this to work properly is daunting, and the actual benefits to doing so are vague at best. The most important question we have to ask ourselves is, was there a problem with the first system severe enough to justify all these convoluted fixes?

10-07-2004, 12:11 AM	#57 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: CO: respawn ticket system I understand your concern Zek. Lay out your vision of what costs what, and what doesn't cost anything. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

10-07-2004, 08:19 AM	#58 (permalink)
Zek Join Date: Jun 2003 Age: 21 Posts: 597	Re: CO: respawn ticket system Skulks and LAs cost 1. Higher lifeforms, JPs, HAs, and maybe guns increase the ticket cost. Everything else doesn't.

10-07-2004, 11:09 AM	#59 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: CO: respawn ticket system To give the other powerful traits (spores, umbra, acidrocket, stomp) no value is to say that they have negligible potency in gameplay, is it not? That seems like an awfully limiting position, it seems. I mean, your team is going to lose if you're frivolous with your onos investment. Why should the same not be true of your webs investment, although by design to a lesser extent? Are not webs to some degree powerful and gameplay-changing? __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

10-07-2004, 05:02 PM	#60 (permalink)
Zek Join Date: Jun 2003 Age: 21 Posts: 597	Re: CO: respawn ticket system No, it's saying that not every single advantage given to one team or another needs to be counter-balanced by ticket costs. Combat is just a quick and simple deathmatch game at its roots, and trying to force the teams to carefully weigh the advantages and disadvantages of every single upgrade is pointless. It seems that the only issue you had with upgrades not costing tickets was a conceptual thing, rather than practical. If a simple and clean system like what we had before works fine, why needlessly bog it down with all these details and rules and exceptions?

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