Re: marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles

**zibalatz** · 12-24-2004, 04:13 AM

Ok let me restate the issues here in terms of a theoretical game start. I'll try to make it as typical as possible.

Suppose we have a 6v6 game. Let's call the marines M1, M2..., M6 and the aliens A1, A2... A6.

A4-A6 run around the map looking for marines to kill.
A1, A2, and A3 run over to a node and begin to gestate to gorge. Once they start gestating, the comm blocks all 3 nozzles they are next to, costing him 45 res. A1-A3 report this to their teammates. A4 & A5 abandon what they are doing, gang up on a nozzle, and barely manage to kill it. A6 continues engaging marines.

While this is happening, M2-M6 have had unrestricted access to the map and have successfully capped 2 nodes.

Since the comm is constantly dropping and recycling nodes, the aliens have no chance to build and their skulks have no chance to scout or engage the marines. In the time it took for the marines to cap 2 nodes the aliens have no nodes and less skulks in the field.

Also, keep in mind that as soon as the marine rt dies or is recycled, there is nothing stopping the comm from trying to redrop the unbuilt rt before the gorge has a chance to drop his. This becomes a waiting/timing game of who can block the nozzle off first, which I think is completely retarded.

**LazyEye** · 12-24-2004, 09:07 AM

Counter: egg on top of the nozzel.

This tatic is dumb and is only useful in small games. (2v2)

**Emanon** · 12-24-2004, 01:40 PM

Solution, plugin that makes structures start out with 1/2hp.

There was a 20 page thread in NS.org about this.

**Nightfire** · 12-24-2004, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

Dropping an RT so the aliens can't build it isn't smart, it's cheap and kills gameplay.

i never like to exploit privileges, this type of action should be a vote kick...

**Zek** · 12-24-2004, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Emanon

Solution, plugin that makes structures start out with 1/2hp.

There was a 20 page thread in NS.org about this.

I don't know if it's 1/2, but structures already start with considerably lower HP than normal. One skulk can easily kill one of the dropped nodes in maybe 10-15 seconds. By the time the comm has enough nodes to pay back his initial loss, all those nodes have been destroyed and the skulks are back on the field. In the meantime he just spent half of his early game res. Starting res is crucial for marines to get on their feet; you need enough to drop all the nodes your team arrives at, and the more you have left over, the faster you can start teching up at your base. By using this tactic, the marines delay their own progression just as much as the aliens', if not more.

**Eclipse** · 12-24-2004, 09:15 PM

I don't know if it's 1/2, but structures already start with considerably lower HP than normal. One skulk can easily kill one of the dropped nodes in maybe 10-15 seconds. By the time the comm has enough nodes to pay back his initial loss, all those nodes have been destroyed and the skulks are back on the field. In the meantime he just spent half of his early game res. Starting res is crucial for marines to get on their feet; you need enough to drop all the nodes your team arrives at, and the more you have left over, the faster you can start teching up at your base. By using this tactic, the marines delay their own progression just as much as the aliens', if not more.

I agree with this. (stupid 10 character thinger stupid thing)

**Tempest** · 12-25-2004, 12:11 AM

I think it's cheap, and should be disallowed. I wonder why they don't just require that marines be near area for stuff to be dropped.

**TheAdj`** · 12-25-2004, 06:26 AM

Egg on the nozzle. Problem solved (in competitive play, unless it's a high-risk node aliens always egg on the nozzle for just this reason, it stops node-blockers).

If the comm wants to waste res on this let him, it'll slow upgrades significantly (If you blocked 3 starting alien RTs, you end up with 55 res initially to drop structures with, so it'll kill your expansion as well for the first 2 minutes of the game). This is why it should be legal, because unless you're playing totally newbie aliens (or very disadvantaged teams, and if you need to do something like this to win against that, you're screwed anyways), it's really a waste of res to try and slow alien RTs this way. It's a Queen's Gambit-style tactic that has very high risk and little hope of rewards. I don't think I've ever successfully used this tactic on anyone that understood what to do.

On the structure hp business, unbuilt structures have half HP. It takes a skulk 37 seconds to kill a built RT, so do the math to determine how long it takes a skulk to kill a half health RT. It takes 30 seconds to recycle.

**Zephyr** · 12-25-2004, 02:57 PM

I believe the nail has been hit on the head. This argument is done with.
-Zephyr

**TheFeniX** · 12-25-2004, 08:35 PM

Wyz brings up a good point "don't drop nodes you have no intention of building." You're right, but if that's the case: it should apply to other venues. What does this tactic cost aliens? Time. As you said, time is a STRONG force in NS.

So, what if I drop a PG near a hive with no intention of it being built so that the aliens must divert from there to rush the lone marine, while the rest of my guys are on the other side of the map building the "real" phase gate for the "real" shotgun rush?

How many commanders here have dropped a TF in front of a building PG only to give that marine cover from OCs?

How many have dropped TFs in a lamed up hive to divert OC fire from their marines?

**Zek** · 12-25-2004, 08:52 PM

I know that Wyz dislikes the idea of using structures as hunks of steel instead of their intended purpose based solely on principle, but you have to think about it from an analytical perspective. I don't see any reason that dropping structures in unoccupied areas of the map should be taboo just because. It's perfectly realistic; the comm has the ability to drop structures anywhere on the map, why wouldn't he use it for something like that if he could? For example, CC blocking; I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with the principle of structures being used as obstructions, but CC blocking is lame because of the extremely beneficial risk/reward ratio. Until something has been officially established as an exploit, it doesn't help anyone to argue about whether or not it's intended.

My argument is that this tactic is fine because it isn't overpowered. Yes the aliens lose some time having to kill the structures, but in exchange the marines delay their upgrades and teching by throwing away half of their early game res for so trivial a gain. It's a tradeoff. You guys are trying to make this tactic seem invalid by listing the benefits, ignoring the disadvantages and implying that having any benefits at all is wrong because of the principle of the thing.

**TheFeniX** · 12-25-2004, 09:42 PM

I have enough problems getting my own 2 starting res nodes, 2 ips, armory, obs, and arms lab (not to mention getting phase tech or armor one going) early game without blowing 30 res to inconvience the aliens.

It's a new tactic we're going to have to adapt to. There is such a thing as getting complacent in the game. I don't think this one qualifies as an exploitive tactic. The numbers just don't add up to me. If we can't resolve this, we could just put it to a vote for the members.

**Wyzcrak** · 12-26-2004, 12:23 AM

Very good points made in this thread.

Thank you for the civil discussion, if nothing else.

You people really can be top notch when you choose to be.

**shroompicker** · 12-26-2004, 01:39 AM

I'm going egg directly on the nozzle from now on. I'd also consider this a win for the aliens, because the commander has wasted a lot of res. A simple skulk rush should counter it.

Perhaps you should do this for a weird-game Thursday, as an experiment?

As far as Zek's "realistic war" argument, games and real war are completely opposite. What's good in a war is "lame" in a game, and what's good in a game design is something you strive to eliminate in a war, namely "balance". e.g: I think the recorded message in co_daimos is laughable. Two years in a technologically driven society, faced with this threat, and they decide to build a huge training center instead of researching how to equip each marine with sonic guns and personal observatories. Forget collecting res, just walk through, shoot the aliens through the walls, then kneel down at a wall opposite a hive and kill it. Heck, after the first encounter I'd put 200 round drums and 20mm nade launchers on those LMG's, and give every marine med/catalyst IV's.

Falarya and company are trying to make a fun game, and it's a beta. So there are flaws right now that haven't been brushed off. Maybe the way to solve this would be to only allow the comm to drop stuff a certain radius from a marine.

--Shroom

**TheAdj`** · 12-26-2004, 06:33 AM

Just a note here since people get carried away on the entire realism topic. If you want to compare NS to a realistic environment like the US Army, it's remarkably similar. Don't start the "it's the future they should have laser guns and <insert stuff here>", because that's ridiculously flawed. People in the 1960's thought by the year 2000 we'd have colonies on the moon and cars would fly. Last time I checked we don't leave low earth orbit and cars still get **** gas mileage on the ground(although improving, gogo hybrids).

You equip soldiers with what you think is the most versatile arsenal capable of dealing with a situation and give them the ability to advance it. The Marines literally go into battle with nothing but the guns in their hands and the technology and intelligence to not only establish a beachhead in what's hostile territory (ever notice marines have to take the time to set up shop while aliens just roll out for the kill initially?), but advance and take on a foe that on average moves twice as fast as they do and is far more deadly by itself. This would lend you to believe that not only are the Marines of NS far more superior to the current military setup, but it's more flexible and able to handle change than our current setup.

The US military is changing from heavy armor and mass firepower to a fast-moving, hard hitting, interconnected force that can handle adapting environments far more better than the current "Cold War" setup. Notice it's taken over a year to do this, while the Marines can change on the fly with little re-tooling. If my marines start getting nailed by focus with jetpacks, I can research heavy armor and move in with mass HMGs and literally wipe out almost anything short of a stomp onos in short order, then the next rush switch to all jetpacks and rule from the air.

Also note that "real" militaries do nothing but train constantly while they advance technologically. In fact I've got to go for explosives training in January to prep for my little sorte to Afghanistan in February. Being "technologically advanced" doesn't do crap if your soldiers can't aim, I guess playing NS doesn't teach some people anything.

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