marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles

**zibalatz** · 12-23-2004, 11:23 PM

What do you guys feel about marines dropping structures (such as rts) purely for the purpose of blocking aliens from building nozzles? (well, slowing them down)

Someone did this earlier this evening (blocking multiple open nozzles at the start of the game) and I couldn't help but feel that it was a borderline exploit, especially since a single skulk can't kill an unbuilt rt before it gets cycled.

It was clearly an intentional move on the part of the commander as he was using a "drop rt/recycle/drop rt/recycle" to prevent aliens from dropping nodes.

**Wyzcrak** · 12-23-2004, 11:26 PM

I think it's crap and I want it removed, but the players will decide on this issue, not the admins.

We'll use this thread to talk this through. Once everyone has had a chance to present his opinion, I'll start a poll (especially with the holidays coming, that poll may not come right away).

**Wyzcrak** · 12-23-2004, 11:30 PM

The fact that it rarely happens is irrelevant, so please don't bring that up.

It's using a structure in a way clearly outside its design and toward a goal that exploits the command chair's abilities at the cost of gameplay. I don't care that you get the money back when you sell it.

And don't say it's "meant to be that way or they would have removed it." I think the devs' response to comm-chair trapping was evidence enough that the devs can and do include things in the game despite the fact that they'd prefer they not be there.

Dropping an RT so the aliens can't build it isn't smart, it's cheap and kills gameplay.

**TheFeniX** · 12-23-2004, 11:34 PM

Something tells me that Dave (Haha! I'm using the Internet) does this as he has informed me of this tactic more than once since I've spoken with him. He used it back during his clan days. For those who don't know, he's my co-worker.

I guess we'd have to determine how steep the gain to loss ratio is on this tactic. Like blocking with commander chairs guarantees a high gain (blocked onos) for almost no loss, does this give the same?

We don't call med spam an exploit because it actually cost the marines something. What are the details of res node recycling revenue and recycle time?

**Wyzcrak** · 12-24-2004, 12:21 AM

Med spam doesn't prevent the other team from building a structure critical to its success and growth.

Zek · 12-24-2004, 12:55 AM

For all intents and purposes, what we're talking about here is comms dropping nodes on the other side of the map to slow alien growth, generally in the beginning of the game. I don't really think it's an issue. It's stupid, but ultimately it just isn't an effective tactic. Unbuilt nodes don't take much time at all for a skulk to kill, well before it can recycle, and the marines just lost 15 of their early game res just to delay an alien node for 20 seconds. Considering how valuable marine res is before they get nodes up, I don't think that's worth it.

**ImAWuss** · 12-24-2004, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zek

...I don't really think it's an issue. It's stupid, but ultimately it just isn't an effective tactic. ... Considering how valuable marine res is before they get nodes up, I don't think that's worth it.

Agreed. Aliens should call it out to the team so they can be sure to get that 15 res that the commander just gave away. Think about it...

**zibalatz** · 12-24-2004, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImAWuss

Agreed. Aliens should call it out to the team so they can be sure to get that 15 res that the commander just gave away. Think about it...

I disagree. This means every time the comm does a nozzle block tactic, at least 2 skulks must divert from what they are doing to eat the node. Meanwhile there may be a third alien who is out of commission gestating near the node (and who reported the block to the other 2 skulks). Potentially having 2-3 aliens out of commission in order to counter the comm dropping an unbuilt structure anywhere on the map seems excessive to me. (and note that this costs zero lost rines, but potentially 15 res)

I definitely do not think that's a fair trade-off.

Feanor · 12-24-2004, 01:32 AM

Hi there

Sulks eat nodes.. unbuilt nodes are even better..
I mean - some sulks run around biting all the *unelectrified* nodes thay can see right. So an unbuilt node is good..
Early game - 15 res is a lot, so have at that node
Late game - Should've snatched that node earlier
*drops 2 cents in*

**Pokerface** · 12-24-2004, 02:03 AM

It's cheap. If you have marines on the way and are trying to attract skulks so you can have them all in one place, maybe then, sure. Just to slow down alien res flow? Cheap. I probably won't kick for it, but it won't win my respect either.

Zek · 12-24-2004, 02:14 AM

Res doesn't come easy in the beginning of the game. Marines need every penny to build the base and put down the first nodes. Throwing away 15-30 of that res just to delay a couple skulks maybe 20 seconds is not a worthwhile investment, however lame it may seem.

**TheFeniX** · 12-24-2004, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wyzcrak

Med spam doesn't prevent the other team from building a structure critical to its success and growth.

I'm comparing gain vs loss in NS, not the specifics. You don't say "bunnyhoping is ok because it doesn't stop the aliens from builing res nodes." You can't compare two situations based on specifics alone.

Med spam can in fact hurt alien growth in different ways. I think we can all come up with scenarios in which med spam can make or break a game. That's why it's ok, it's almost even in the gain to loss area. The marines gain an edge, but are hurt in the res area almost equally.

Using CCs to block aliens is against the rules because no realistic combination of aliens can beat down a chair before it's done recycling, and the marines get back a signifigant portion of their res.

Standard alien tactics suggest that the nodes aliens are most likely to drop include the two nodes most easily defended (hence those closest to the starting hive). If you can't manage to get two skulks munching on an unbuilt node close to home (considering that's EXACTLY what skulks need to be doing), then you have other problems.

I'm not saying I like this tactic. I'm only suggesting we don't label something "cheap" or "unfair" until we've analyzed it. If we find that a reasonably competent alien team cannot counter this tactic effectively without major loss, then it would be exploitive.

Ex> CC blocking. Block an onos, aliens loose 100 res + gestation time + higher lifeform in the field.

Marines loose 30 (I think, shows how much I know) res to drop a chair + 2 seconds of command attention. But they can get back most of that res because just about no alien team could chew a CC down before it recycles.

Once again: let's compare gain vs loss before we go off the deep end on this one.

BTW: The relocation I commanded on Tanith today was awsome. My marines performed exceptionally well and it was both agitating and satisfying to watch the aliens chew their own hive to death.

**zibalatz** · 12-24-2004, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Using CCs to block aliens is against the rules because no realistic combination of aliens can beat down a chair before it's done recycling, and the marines get back a signifigant portion of their res.

Ok what about using CCs to block nozzles?

LazyEye · 12-24-2004, 03:41 AM

I agree with fenix

Quote:

Originally Posted by zib.cfg

Ok what about using CCs to block nozzles?

This cant be done because you cant build things on res nodes other than res nodes.

**Wyzcrak** · 12-24-2004, 03:59 AM

Lazy is correct. The game allows only res nodes to be built on res nozzles.

A thread is not a requirement for analysis. Analysis happens during gameplay and elsewhere.

Why is it out of bounds to rule out such a rediculous and exploit-driven behavior regardless of the behavior's other attributes?

Do not measure the cost of this exploit in resources alone. Time is critical in this game. Arguments have been made that the entire outcome of a game of NS is determined in the very same seconds during which this exploit is performed.

The design of the resource tower is not complicated. You drop it when you want to build it. If the design of the game intended for you to prevent, from across the map and without personnel, the opposition from dropping resource towers, the ability would be explicitly obtainable in the tech tree.

This is not innovation, and it's not unreasonable to declare it unwanted without having discussed it in an eight page thread.

That having been said, let said thread begin.

---

6v6 game.

I hop in the comm chair and send everyone out of base.

I listen for gorges approaching nozzles and drop nodes accordingly.

I drop nodes to my marines who are waiting.

The gorge calls two skulks home.

I now have four nodes and very little opposition in the field.

I sell the nodes, forcing either a maximum marine loss of seven resources or a minimum alien loss of time that is cumulatively totalled at over a minute.

Any resources this cost me has been all but completely recovered by my many unopposed and fully-built resource nodes in the same time period. I now have approximately four nodes while the aliens are just beginning to build theirs.

My marines are still in the field.. still advancing.. and have a MUCH better chance of killing the gorges as they're building the delayed nodes.

---

Hey, I'm open minded... but.. if you guys want me to start trying this from the chair, I'll make it worthwhile for the marines. Maybe repetition will be required to prove it's a threat to gameplay by design.

12-23-2004, 11:23 PM	#1 (permalink)
zibalatz Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 899	marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles What do you guys feel about marines dropping structures (such as rts) purely for the purpose of blocking aliens from building nozzles? (well, slowing them down) Someone did this earlier this evening (blocking multiple open nozzles at the start of the game) and I couldn't help but feel that it was a borderline exploit, especially since a single skulk can't kill an unbuilt rt before it gets cycled. It was clearly an intentional move on the part of the commander as he was using a "drop rt/recycle/drop rt/recycle" to prevent aliens from dropping nodes.

12-23-2004, 11:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles I think it's crap and I want it removed, but the players will decide on this issue, not the admins. We'll use this thread to talk this through. Once everyone has had a chance to present his opinion, I'll start a poll (especially with the holidays coming, that poll may not come right away). __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

12-23-2004, 11:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles The fact that it rarely happens is irrelevant, so please don't bring that up. It's using a structure in a way clearly outside its design and toward a goal that exploits the command chair's abilities at the cost of gameplay. I don't care that you get the money back when you sell it. And don't say it's "meant to be that way or they would have removed it." I think the devs' response to comm-chair trapping was evidence enough that the devs can and do include things in the game despite the fact that they'd prefer they not be there. Dropping an RT so the aliens can't build it isn't smart, it's cheap and kills gameplay. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

12-23-2004, 11:34 PM	#4 (permalink)
TheFeniX Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 26 Posts: 4,478	Re: marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles Something tells me that Dave (Haha! I'm using the Internet) does this as he has informed me of this tactic more than once since I've spoken with him. He used it back during his clan days. For those who don't know, he's my co-worker. I guess we'd have to determine how steep the gain to loss ratio is on this tactic. Like blocking with commander chairs guarantees a high gain (blocked onos) for almost no loss, does this give the same? We don't call med spam an exploit because it actually cost the marines something. What are the details of res node recycling revenue and recycle time? __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TheFeniX's Steam Profile TG's Team Fortress 2 Steam Group

12-24-2004, 12:21 AM	#5 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles Med spam doesn't prevent the other team from building a structure critical to its success and growth. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

12-24-2004, 12:55 AM	#6 (permalink)
Zek Join Date: Jun 2003 Age: 21 Posts: 597	Re: marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles For all intents and purposes, what we're talking about here is comms dropping nodes on the other side of the map to slow alien growth, generally in the beginning of the game. I don't really think it's an issue. It's stupid, but ultimately it just isn't an effective tactic. Unbuilt nodes don't take much time at all for a skulk to kill, well before it can recycle, and the marines just lost 15 of their early game res just to delay an alien node for 20 seconds. Considering how valuable marine res is before they get nodes up, I don't think that's worth it.

12-24-2004, 01:32 AM	#9 (permalink)
Feanor Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 32	Re: marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles Hi there Sulks eat nodes.. unbuilt nodes are even better.. I mean - some sulks run around biting all the unelectrified nodes thay can see right. So an unbuilt node is good.. Early game - 15 res is a lot, so have at that node Late game - Should've snatched that node earlier drops 2 cents in __________________ Erm. hi :) waves siggy

12-24-2004, 02:03 AM	#10 (permalink)
Pokerface Join Date: May 2003 Location: MD, USA Age: 30 Posts: 5,787	Re: marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles It's cheap. If you have marines on the way and are trying to attract skulks so you can have them all in one place, maybe then, sure. Just to slow down alien res flow? Cheap. I probably won't kick for it, but it won't win my respect either. __________________ NS Game Officer. TF2 Admin. BF2 Admin / Scripter. PM with issues. Tempus: Pokerface is nailing it right on the head. Everyone who is arguing against him is simply arguing against reality. <anmuzi> it is not permitted to have privacy or anonymity <LazyEye> yeah when I play on TG the server digs though my trash Arm yourself with knowledge: TG NS TF2 BF2

12-24-2004, 02:14 AM	#11 (permalink)
Zek Join Date: Jun 2003 Age: 21 Posts: 597	Re: marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles Res doesn't come easy in the beginning of the game. Marines need every penny to build the base and put down the first nodes. Throwing away 15-30 of that res just to delay a couple skulks maybe 20 seconds is not a worthwhile investment, however lame it may seem.

12-24-2004, 03:59 AM	#15 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: marines dropping unbuilt structures (such as rts) to block nozzles Lazy is correct. The game allows only res nodes to be built on res nozzles. A thread is not a requirement for analysis. Analysis happens during gameplay and elsewhere. Why is it out of bounds to rule out such a rediculous and exploit-driven behavior regardless of the behavior's other attributes? Do not measure the cost of this exploit in resources alone. Time is critical in this game. Arguments have been made that the entire outcome of a game of NS is determined in the very same seconds during which this exploit is performed. The design of the resource tower is not complicated. You drop it when you want to build it. If the design of the game intended for you to prevent, from across the map and without personnel, the opposition from dropping resource towers, the ability would be explicitly obtainable in the tech tree. This is not innovation, and it's not unreasonable to declare it unwanted without having discussed it in an eight page thread. That having been said, let said thread begin. --- 6v6 game. I hop in the comm chair and send everyone out of base. I listen for gorges approaching nozzles and drop nodes accordingly. I drop nodes to my marines who are waiting. The gorge calls two skulks home. I now have four nodes and very little opposition in the field. I sell the nodes, forcing either a maximum marine loss of seven resources or a minimum alien loss of time that is cumulatively totalled at over a minute. Any resources this cost me has been all but completely recovered by my many unopposed and fully-built resource nodes in the same time period. I now have approximately four nodes while the aliens are just beginning to build theirs. My marines are still in the field.. still advancing.. and have a MUCH better chance of killing the gorges as they're building the delayed nodes. --- Hey, I'm open minded... but.. if you guys want me to start trying this from the chair, I'll make it worthwhile for the marines. Maybe repetition will be required to prove it's a threat to gameplay by design. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

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