bunnyhopping help - Page 2

verbose · 03-16-2005, 01:35 PM

I'm torn on this issue. I used to quite vocal that bunnyhopping was cheating, plain and simple. I voiced my opinion quite well back in 2003 with my multiple posts in this offical forum thread. Excerpts:

Quote:

Call it whatever you want. It's still "bunnyhopping" as everyone is familiar with the term. You are exploiting a bug in the HL physics engine to achieve speeds greater than you should be able to. Just because valve had to band-aid the physics code to prevent it from getting completely out of hand, doesn't make it not an exploit. Yes, this exploit takes practice to perform well; it's not easy. That doesn't magically transform it from an "exploit" into a "skill" though. Ease-of-execution is not a factor in the definition of "exploit."

Once quick example on why this is an exploit: a bunnyhopping marine with an HMG can outpace an LMG marine down a hall. The heavy weapons are designed to make you slower than average, but you're circumventing that design choice by exploiting a HL engine bug. Thankfully, Flayra is killing bunnyhopping in 1.1. End of story.

Quote:

You are exploiting a bug in the HL physics engine. END. I should not have to exploit the same bug to even the playing field.
...
You're twisting the issue again. It's not a skill, it's an exploit. A player should not have to have knowledge about a flaw in the game's physics engine in order to compete with you. That's an unreasonable expectation.

Quote:

Cheaters, understand this. "Exploit" and "skill" are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to believe. Just because it takes practice to bunnyhop well does not make it any less of an exploit. It doesn't matter if an exploit requires timed keypresses in conjunction with mouse movement, or if you just bind a special console command to a key and smack it every now and then. It's still an exploit, whether it takes skill to perform or not.

Bunnyhopping is an exploit. I have never seen a solid argument saying it wasn't. Remember the good ol' days when a veteran bunnyhopper could truck across the map at over 10x normal speed? Everyone accepts that the designers didn't intend for that to be possible. Someone discovered a way to abuse the physics engine. Exploiting that flaw in the physicis model became too common, and a correct fix was quite difficult, so the designers had to band-aid the problem; A crude hack to keep the problem from getting completely out of hand. Just because you can't achieve insane speeds anymore, doesn't mean that the speed boost you still get isn't achieved unfairly.

Just because everyone has the ability to b-hop available to them, doesn't make it not an exploit. Everyone also has the ability to use OGC. Do you expect everyone to use OGC so that they can compete with those who already do? Further, everyone has the ability to turn off muzzle-flash and skulk-teeth, but that's not kosher either. They're part of the game design, and when you circumvent that design, you are exploiting. Cheating if you will, as the end result of either definition in the game world is the same: you illicitly obtain an advantage over other players.

That works so well, I'm going to repeat it: Illicitly obtaining an advantage over other players is cheating. That sums up bunnyhopping, OGC, muzzle-flash, and skulk-teeth quite well.

The situation is different now. Flayra deliberately left bunnyhopping in for aliens. Whether this was because it was too difficult to fix without breaking some other bit of code such as wall-walking, or some other motivation entirely, it's now part of the NS design. I still hold that newer players are at a disadvantage until they not only learn that bunnyhopping exists, but also how to perform it, and have put in practice time. But, instead of being at a major disadvantage in situations such as skulk vs. marine, a non-bunnyhopping alien is simply not performing as "well" as he could be compared to his teammates.

Bunnyhopping is generally accepted now instead of being frowned upon. Even if it was not kosher on this server, it'd be hard to enforce. Players would have to report violations, and if I were an admin I'd find it hard to ban someone due to bunnyhopping unless they were a chronic offender.

I'm learning to bunnyhop

[D.I]WILDCHILD · 03-16-2005, 02:13 PM

i agree that even though it was left in the game(for alien use remember) it is still not something everyone can do without a script or alot of practice,therefor giving a person a unfair advantage in the game.I don't like scripts of bhop,thats just me.

rs_al · 03-16-2005, 02:23 PM

It is possible they were afraid of breaking wall-walk, it's pretty obvious they are none too secure in changing that code, but gorges can also bhop, and they have no special movement parameters.

I bunny hop all the time in half life single player, but that comes from having played through it at least a dozen times. It doesn't translate to ns and other mods as easily as you'd think it would

micr0c0sm · 03-16-2005, 04:01 PM

If you put in a lot of time to practice bunnyhopping I think thats its just as fair as people who don't. In that time i practiced bhop you practiced your aim, both improving on our respective skills. Scripting to bhop i frown upon (actually scripting in general but i digress...).

attrition · 03-16-2005, 06:03 PM

Its fine that some of you dont want to accept reality, but for thoes of you who do.... I'll be on teamspeak on sat to help as well.

**Wyzcrak** · 03-16-2005, 06:10 PM

reality, attrition, is a matter of perception. That post was potentially harmful.

**ImAWuss** · 03-16-2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verbose

....I still hold that newer players are at a disadvantage until they not only learn that bunnyhopping exists, but also how to perform it, and have put in practice time.

New players are already at the disadvantage whether they relize it or not.

NS is simply NOT a game you can just dive into, and win. I eplained that to several people today. They were asking why they were loosing, and they'd only been playing for several weeks.

Fact is, it's part of the game, and needs to be learned like everyone else had todo. If you dont want to learn, then go play CS!

verbose · 03-17-2005, 06:23 PM

The difference with bunnyhopping is that it's not something a new player would even expect to exist, or would even necessarily recognize if he saw it. Why would a player expect a bug in the physics that allowed faster movement? The newbie would be at a loss until he noticed "dang, why are all my teammates so much faster than me?"

Aim, strategy, weapon selection, terrain tactics, etc. are all expected, and will be noticed and learned. Bunnyhopping is a subtle bug. You could watch players hop madly down a hall for weeks and just assume they're doing it out of boredom or to make themselves hard targets to hit. Only when you see them consistently outpacing you would you begin to suspect something was up.

**Iceberg** · 03-17-2005, 07:18 PM

http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/...howtopic=90375

Some average speed comparisons Ive been working on.

Black_V!per · 03-18-2005, 01:36 AM

Sorry to say i hate bunny hoping, HAX!!!11!!!!

**_Ender_** · 03-18-2005, 02:03 AM

I'm sure the original poster didnt want this to be debate about whether or not its bad or good. Its just a heads up for people who want to learn.. nothing more.

If you feel its cheating, then fine. Dont attend. If you are however able to open your mind a little bit, and accept the fact that its here to stay, then attend.

By no means did he ask for anybody's opinion on a subject that has been talked about to death.

I will now return you to your pointless opinions.

[D.I]WILDCHILD · 03-18-2005, 02:43 PM

I reject your reality and replace it with my own...HAHAHAHAH....I WIN!!!

**TheFeniX** · 03-18-2005, 11:20 PM

Contrast this with bunnyhoping in Jedi Outcast/Academy which is ridiculously easy and turned CTF into a joke. I could cruise around maps with Force Speed at well over 8 times normal speed. There were times I could jump across an entire map if I wanted to.

Using that, I could decide when and where I wanted to engage anyone. That's the only reason I have a bad taste about bunnyhoping.

Black_V!per · 03-19-2005, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFeniX

Contrast this with bunnyhoping in Jedi Outcast/Academy which is ridiculously easy and turned CTF into a joke. I could cruise around maps with Force Speed at well over 8 times normal speed. There were times I could jump across an entire map if I wanted to.

Using that, I could decide when and where I wanted to engage anyone. That's the only reason I have a bad taste about bunnyhoping.

You sure it wasnt those hax???

**Wyzcrak** · 03-19-2005, 05:26 PM

I'm now in TeamSpeak and can help anyone who's interested.

03-16-2005, 02:13 PM	#17 (permalink)
[D.I]WILDCHILD Join Date: May 2003 Location: next to the gas station Age: 40 Posts: 154	Re: bunnyhopping help i agree that even though it was left in the game(for alien use remember) it is still not something everyone can do without a script or alot of practice,therefor giving a person a unfair advantage in the game.I don't like scripts of bhop,thats just me. __________________ I reject your reality and replace it with my own!!..so let's cut out the middle man and just use mine!! I wasn't born with enough middle fingers!! If you choose to close the door on reality..DON'T OPEN THE WINDOW(S)!!

03-16-2005, 02:23 PM	#18 (permalink)
rs_al Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 499	Re: bunnyhopping help It is possible they were afraid of breaking wall-walk, it's pretty obvious they are none too secure in changing that code, but gorges can also bhop, and they have no special movement parameters. I bunny hop all the time in half life single player, but that comes from having played through it at least a dozen times. It doesn't translate to ns and other mods as easily as you'd think it would

03-16-2005, 04:01 PM	#19 (permalink)
micr0c0sm Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 660	Re: bunnyhopping help If you put in a lot of time to practice bunnyhopping I think thats its just as fair as people who don't. In that time i practiced bhop you practiced your aim, both improving on our respective skills. Scripting to bhop i frown upon (actually scripting in general but i digress...).

03-16-2005, 06:03 PM	#20 (permalink)
attrition Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: WI Age: 22 Posts: 37	Re: bunnyhopping help Its fine that some of you dont want to accept reality, but for thoes of you who do.... I'll be on teamspeak on sat to help as well.

03-16-2005, 06:10 PM	#21 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: bunnyhopping help reality, attrition, is a matter of perception. That post was potentially harmful. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

03-17-2005, 06:23 PM	#23 (permalink)
verbose Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA Age: 28 Posts: 409	Re: bunnyhopping help The difference with bunnyhopping is that it's not something a new player would even expect to exist, or would even necessarily recognize if he saw it. Why would a player expect a bug in the physics that allowed faster movement? The newbie would be at a loss until he noticed "dang, why are all my teammates so much faster than me?" Aim, strategy, weapon selection, terrain tactics, etc. are all expected, and will be noticed and learned. Bunnyhopping is a subtle bug. You could watch players hop madly down a hall for weeks and just assume they're doing it out of boredom or to make themselves hard targets to hit. Only when you see them consistently outpacing you would you begin to suspect something was up.

03-17-2005, 07:18 PM	#24 (permalink)
Iceberg Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Illinois Age: 25 Posts: 1,931	Re: bunnyhopping help http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/...howtopic=90375 Some average speed comparisons Ive been working on. __________________ It only takes 2 bites [insert parasite] to get to the center of a meatpop. TGNS Admin \| NS Forum Moderator Digz \| NS Play Tester Natural Selection \| TGNS Primer \| Communication Awareness! Army Info: Deployment or Bust - June 2009

03-18-2005, 01:36 AM	#25 (permalink)
Black_V!per Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Kingman AZ. Age: 20 Posts: 1,445	Re: bunnyhopping help Sorry to say i hate bunny hoping, HAX!!!11!!!! __________________ Start counting, when you reach infinity tell me. If you can read this you've got to much time on your hands.

03-18-2005, 02:03 AM	#26 (permalink)
_Ender_ Join Date: May 2003 Location: I am lost, if you know where I am then please feel free to tell me. Age: 29 Posts: 2,048	Re: bunnyhopping help I'm sure the original poster didnt want this to be debate about whether or not its bad or good. Its just a heads up for people who want to learn.. nothing more. If you feel its cheating, then fine. Dont attend. If you are however able to open your mind a little bit, and accept the fact that its here to stay, then attend. By no means did he ask for anybody's opinion on a subject that has been talked about to death. I will now return you to your pointless opinions.

03-18-2005, 02:43 PM	#27 (permalink)
[D.I]WILDCHILD Join Date: May 2003 Location: next to the gas station Age: 40 Posts: 154	Re: bunnyhopping help I reject your reality and replace it with my own...HAHAHAHAH....I WIN!!! __________________ I reject your reality and replace it with my own!!..so let's cut out the middle man and just use mine!! I wasn't born with enough middle fingers!! If you choose to close the door on reality..DON'T OPEN THE WINDOW(S)!!

03-18-2005, 11:20 PM	#28 (permalink)
TheFeniX Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Houston, TX Age: 26 Posts: 4,478	Re: bunnyhopping help Contrast this with bunnyhoping in Jedi Outcast/Academy which is ridiculously easy and turned CTF into a joke. I could cruise around maps with Force Speed at well over 8 times normal speed. There were times I could jump across an entire map if I wanted to. Using that, I could decide when and where I wanted to engage anyone. That's the only reason I have a bad taste about bunnyhoping. __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TheFeniX's Steam Profile TG's Team Fortress 2 Steam Group

03-19-2005, 05:26 PM	#30 (permalink)
Wyzcrak Join Date: May 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 14,148	Re: bunnyhopping help I'm now in TeamSpeak and can help anyone who's interested. __________________ Steam Community? Add me. \| Join #tacticalgamer \| Search Results Legend \| New Posts Forum Filter \| Postbox Toggle \| Live Thread Review \| One Line Results \| Free Remote, Encrypted Backup Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

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