Stupid

I don't think any SM has a lack of respect for any non-SM. What you see the administration do (admins, GO, Apo) is continually remind folks what keeps this community together. Not everyone has been around this community for the same amount of time - and everyone that enjoys this place deserves to know what the best way to show their appreciation is.

That's all the admin. is doing and I don't fault them a bit for doing it.

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Former TGNS admin until WoW blinded me with flashy lights.

kormendi

Stupid is right. The admin team is typically very hush about the SM pressure, but right now its a bit more in the spotlight because of two factors. 1) We just spent mucho $$$ on a fancy new server that costs mucho $$$/month to maintain, and 2) we are tweaking the SM/non-SM benefits so there is a bit of debate in that department.

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Team Fortress 2 Admin | NS Admin
PM me if you have any questions/concerns regarding the server.

bentring

Nice addition to the server. It may be purely anecdotal, but after the grey admin icon it seemed that the unregs behaved ... not better, really, but with more maturity.

I think having the grey admin icon would help keep people in line, even if it were purely got looks. When the cat's away the mouse willl play and such.

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aka Roland (the Headless Thompson Gunner; not of Gilead)

Zek

It's better than nothing, but I think you'd be surprised how many registered players there are who simply would not use it no matter how much it's shoved in their faces when they receive it. Either because they're lazy, or too unfamiliar with the rules to kick people, or whatever. I can imagine it won't be easy getting them to pass it along either. It's hard enough getting SMs to use their temp admin...

Would it be possible to tweak it to give gb access to the oldest registered user on the team?

Yer Mom

Good call on Zek's part. Some reg's just don't like to take the admin position on the server.

I like the addition, it makes things a lot easier, but the above is still true. Maybe we could make it possible to add a list of reg's who would use gb more than others and if one of those reg's are on, the gb goes directly to them above anyone else?

Dunno.

-Mom

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Yer Mom /O>

To all but me is the look given but never received. My heart sinks faster and faster every time I look into them, yet I do not understand their controling power on my soul. - W11114m W45h1n670n

badoo6200

your server is so good !!!!

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Badoo

kormendi

Glad you enjoy it. I've played a few rounds with you, its good to see you made it to the forums.

Be sure to read our rules in their entirety and sign the primer thread so you can get rid of that pesky '?' icon.

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Team Fortress 2 Admin | NS Admin
PM me if you have any questions/concerns regarding the server.

Zek

Honestly I just do not see a reason we should be going through this. gb is a command that needs to be in the hands of people that will use it for the good of the server. Most notably, for balancing teams(it's very difficult to convince guests to switch) and removing uncommunicative players. It takes an incredibly prohibitive amount of time to communicate to other people that they need to kick a ? when you could have just done it yourself. If the guy with gb or temp admin is a Comm or Fade or is busy defending a hive he might not have the time to bother with it. The times when this change needs to be made most quickly are the times when it's most difficult to instruct others on how to do it.

I'm fine with res slots being an SM-exclusive perk. IMHO that's enough in and of itself(the large quantity of ?s lately is largely due to beta2). If people won't pay for that there isn't much they will pay for. gb is crucial for the administration of the server and by offering it as a carrot for SMs the quality of the server during off-peak times is being notably sacrificed, for little real gain. Pretty much every time I've been on the server since this change was made, I've seen at least one person who should be gb'ed and the game has suffered from the lack of anyone able and willing to do so.

I think we should just cut our losses on this and return gb to registered players as before. If not with points, then with a comparable measurement like time registered.

blu.knight

Zek has said it very well. This isn't going to get you more SMs. All it can stand to do is decrease the server's quality.

Ferris Bueller

Let me break it down guys:
Zek, you have a valid point but seems like he may have missed the gray icon fix. Please realize that with the addition of the gray icons, gb is in the hands of reg'd players now, but only one per team, and that should be plenty to do the job.

Now, I understand the frustration about gb not being available to everyone, but heres the dilemma we're faced with- not everyone is responsible enough to use it. This hasnt really been a problem before, but it is inevitably going to be. We have two servers now. We're seeing massive numbers of new players. As prominent as TG was in the NS community before, the addition of a second server (providing 100% more room for people, we've all seen how frequently the server used to get full of regs and we'd see no ?'s for hours on end), and some of the other things that appear to be in the works are going to amplify our status tenfold.

So what does that mean problem-wise? It means that we're going to get people registering just to lose the ?. It means registered players who havent played here much and we dont really have any idea of their maturity level. We all know points are a thing of the past now and the other options enabled by them are open to all. Without that barrier, if gb was an open command to reg'd users we could potentially see regs and ?'s being gb'd for no reason, or to let one of their friends in or any other of a myriad of reasons.

Now, this is not a guarantee, but its a high risk, and one the admins would rather not police. So the command has been put in the hands of one reg'd user per team, as well as SM's and admins. Hopefully this system will work, time will tell.

On the other hand, as stated earlier, the time-registered system wont work because the record is too easily lost, and should something happen, it would be a pain to re-calculate and re-integrate into the server. I believe we have an amicable solution to a problem.

Remember guys, giving gb to SM's only after the 2 server shift was not aimed at gaining more SM's. People will donate for SM if they feel like TG merits their contribution. The goal was to just put it in the hands of people who have made that donation and thus proven their regard for the servers and the community. This isnt to say that non-SM's dont value these things just as highly, as i'm sure most of you do. However, the move was a mistake and through everyone's comments on it, it was realized and solved.

So I leave it to you all like this: be you an admin, a SM, a regular, or just a newly registered player, YOU ARE a member of this community. By signing the primer, whether 3 years ago or just today, you accepted the burden of upholding the server rules and trying to make sure that others do the same. If you dont have access to the gb command and something goes wrong, that doesnt mean you cant impart the rules to the unknowing fellow who happens to break them. It doesnt mean that you cant talk to the person or people who do have access at that point and recommend action be taken. It doesnt mean that you'll never have the privelege (as I understand the system, its given to the first registered player to join, then the next if he leaves). It certainly does not mean that you are not valued here or being left out.

One last section: responsibility. Anyone who has ever been an admin on a server knows responsibility. If something is going wrong and you have the power to fix it, you do it. Right then, right there. It doesnt matter if you're defending a hive, a fade saving the team, a marine building an emergency obs, or anything else. If theres a problem and you have a gray or green icon next to your name, YOU HAVE ACCEPTED the responsibility to fix it NOW. If you dont feel like taking the responsibility, use the passgb command to pass it to another player who will. Keep in mind also that if you have it and abuse it or fail to act when you're asked by your team because you're too "busy" and it has a negative outcome, you can still be reported and i'm sure the admins would be none too happy with you for that.

So in closing, we have a solution. The power to act is in all of our hands, a few at a time. Nobody's being singled out. Nobody's being excluded. If the job isnt being done, find a way to make it happen and there are ways. Be responsible and keep having a good time. See you guys in a couple days when I get home from my parents house.

Ferris out.

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|TG-6th|Ferris Bueller

aeroripper

Temp admins and 'gb' users are not required to act. If a user wants to become a SM, it is not mandatory for them to admin the server now that they have temp admin status. That's our job. If they use gb\temp-admin responsibly, then I welcome it. In the case they don't feel comfortable, or just plain don't want to use it, they are welcome to pass it to somebody who will.

I wouldn't chastise players for not wanting to use 'gb', or passing it to other players if something comes up. If there is an issue, calmly and respectfully inform them that they can pass the 'gb' if they want somebody else to use it. Failing that, get in contact with an admin or shoot off a PM so we can keep the problem player from playing future games.

Zek

No, I mentioned it before, and I don't think that it is. One per team is not plenty to do the job, because the odds are that this one person won't do the job period. I would speculate that maybe 3/4 of the registered players don't make sufficient use of the gb command, if any. I'd be curious to see statistics on how many have ever used it even once. Even if you can convince them to use it after 30+ seconds of asking them, this is not acceptable when the problem is immediate and it's taking everyone's time away from the game. That goes double when something like a hive siege is going down and everyone is busy. Or would you have us spend even longer instructing them on how to pass the command to someone else? Or even longer still contacting an admin about it? This is a system that only functions in theory, not practice.

This isn't a dilemma, and it never has been. Like you said, the problem has never come up before, so I don't see any reason to restrict the command so heavily "just in case." I don't recall ever hearing anything about gb being abused. Besides, this system is just as likely to leave gb in the hands of someone who will abuse it.

I think it's much less effort to police the currently non-existant problem of gb abuse than it is to police the entire server in the absence of anyone who's willing to use the gb command.

Is that true? The record is right there in the thread. Even if the date doesn't work, we could re-implement points with a simple "100 points per game" system that measures how much they've played here. 5,000 points gives you gb, or something like that. Or, simpler still, regulars could simply be hand-picked to be given access to the command.

I think it's pretty clear that this whole series of changes, gb included, was to make the SM option more attractive. I didn't see any mention of a deficiency in the current system. Not that there's anything wrong with TG trying to pay the bills, but there's no point in coming up with excuses.

Okay, suppose we're playing at an off-peak time with no admins or SMs present(happens every day). A team imbalance occurs, and the person at the bottom of the scoreboard is a guest that is not familiar with the rules. Attempts to convince him to switch are unsuccessful. Furthermore, the person on the team with gb is preoccupied and doesn't realize the situation, or perhaps himself is not familiar with the usage of the command. By now, 20-30 seconds have passed and the teams are still imbalanced. What is your solution here? Just make somebody else switch because nobody can be bothered to deal with the guest? Logically we should just be able to gb the bottom scorer and let him rejoin on the other team, but with this system that doesn't work.

Yer Mom

I have to agree with Zek and the rest, not based on the system not working, but based on it's implementation into the gaming atmosphere.

I've said this a million times before: NS is a game of SECONDS. Not minutes, not tens of minutes, seconds. If 30 seconds pass in the time it takes the Fade to pass on gb to another reg, then that fade was out of play for 30 seconds. That's 30 seconds for the Marines to occupy double, or start a seige on a hive. It takes 5 marines about 3-5 seconds to build a PG... another 5 seconds to build a TF, and maybe another 10 to upgrade to seige. That's a total of 20 seconds. If it takes the Fade 30 seconds to understand how to pass the GB command, that's game.

I can't say that I see an easy solution. This solution, while good, doesn't seem to fit into the "perfection" tree. My suggestion would be to make it possible for people to take the gb command, instead of it being passed. That makes more sense than to give every regular GB, and more sense than to just give one person gb. If you could take the gb command from the player who has it, but is preoccupied, then our problem would be solved. So, you're thinking, "Well, what about those people who will abuse it?" I'd say 7 out of 10 regs here don't even pay attention to the fact that they have it, let alone understand how to use it. I actually witnessed a reg, holding the gray icon, say "What's GB?" today. So, we change the plugin so that regs can take the GB command away from other regs for themselves, and keep it secretive. Don't broadcast it when people join. Don't spam it every few minutes that it's possible to do. Those of us who need to know that we can do it should already know.

If you're asking for simple solutions, you're not going to find one. If you're asking for the easiest way to loophole a problem that we don't even know will happen yet (the abuse of GB), the above is the best I can see.

Just my .02.

-Mom

__________________
Yer Mom /O>

To all but me is the look given but never received. My heart sinks faster and faster every time I look into them, yet I do not understand their controling power on my soul. - W11114m W45h1n670n

Wyzcrak

Educate your peers early, guys. When the teams are unbalanced, or when the teammate is knifing the armory is NOT the time to find out if your peers are prepared to defend that which you come here to enjoy.

Tell the guy with the gray icon what it means when things are calm. Tell him that he alone has the option to remove problematic players, and that you'd appreciate him acting quickly to do that should you need him to. Remind him that he must cite a server rules violation *if* he uses it, and encourage him to visit the forums and make sure he's current on the rules. Get as many other regulars to listen in each time you explain this. Your efforts will snowball over time, as our turnover of regulars isn't all that bad.

This is a wonderful non-fiscal contribution to the community, and the server. Instead of bringing to the server one player (yourself) who is prepared and qualified to enforce our rules to strangers, CREATE in your peers OTHERS who are equally prepared and qualified. You're raising the quality of play not only by removing players we don't want, but also by cultivating in regulars the qualities we DO want.

Finally, educate him about the 'passgb' command, and encourage him to use it if he's not interested in helping his peers defend what *he* comes here to enjoy.

Voice your expectations to your peers on the server with as much diligence as you voice your objections to your admins in the forums.

I do encourage you to PM an admin if, after the above efforts, you see a player who regularly chooses to keep the gray icon despite his complacency to habitually do nothing. We can arrange for those players, whose right it is to do nothing, to never receive the gray icon to begin with.

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Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.

Wyzcrak

You can manage the gray icons like we all manage question mark players.

The first thing you do when a question mark hits your team's scoreboard is to talk with him and make sure he's got the communication abilities you expect when you come here. You don't wait until your hive's under siege and he's the only guy who has the res to drop the backup movement chambers before you lose the hive.

So, now, address the gray icon the moment he appears on your team's scoreboard. Explain that its use is optional, and how he can enable you to carry the burden if he doesn't want to.

As we do with question marks, get your ducks in a row beforehand. Get the gray where it needs to be before it need be called to action.

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Steam Community? Add me. | Join #tacticalgamer | Search Results Legend | New Posts Forum Filter | Postbox Toggle | Live Thread Review | One Line Results | Free Remote, Encrypted Backup

Darkilla: In short, NS is pretty much really fast chess. With guns. Apophis: I haven't seen anyone say that SM's are better than non-SMs. Nordbomber: This is THE first server I've seen where either side can comeback from out of seemingly nowhere with the right teamwork. en4rcment: I have NEVER experienced the type of gameplay that I have found here. Nightly I am amazed at the personalities and gaming talent. Root: Welcome to TG. Feel free to punctuate your sentences correctly. Monkerz: Its gonna take all my skills to beat those boys off in the future.