Map Request - Page 2

blu.knight · 05-13-2007, 10:58 AM

I don't think removing votemap is really the solution... but then again, I saw some pretty terrible behavior on the server the other day...

The entire alien team tried to use votemap to end the game because they were losing. Seemed pretty terrible.

Rampage · 05-13-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroripper

If that were the case, why not always play anything but tanith, veil, eclipse? Or 24\7 heavily modded combat on the second server? What the majority wants is not always what's best in this specific case. I personally like the 'big 3' maps, but also like mixing them with non-standard maps like machina to give our playtime some variety.

I've also gotten tired of seeing maps like machina votemapped instantly for tanith\veil every time they come up, even if a few players want to play the new map. The initial idea I had with machina in the mapcycle is to put it in between veil\tanith so the server would still be populated enough to have good games on it, although now people see that tanith is next, and votemap instantly for the next map.

I'd rather see something like limiting votemap by time, say a minute after the server switches to the map is the cutoff point for voting. Nothing ruins the morale\game more then getting a few minutes into a game on a new map, then having it switched to tanith.

This is one of the most reasoned responses I've read on this proposal. My favorite points with a couple of my own ideas:

Place new maps in between highly popular maps; the television networks use this same strategy to give newer or weaker shows a chance at picking up viewers, and that philosophy could work for maps.
Make the treshhold for voting to change from a new map like Machina higher than the norm (but not ridiculously so), and as a concession make the map time shorter for the newer maps.
Limit the time when a votemap is allowed. If a player can't decide on voting within the first minute, he or she is not paying attention anyway.
Flaming of all who disagree with me will not only be allowed, but encouraged (okay, just kidding, thought I'd see if you were still awake). Plus 4 items makes the list look more important.

One of my favorite things about this server is that change of the status quo is possible, but only after we've run the idea around for a bit. Let's keep talking about it and come up with some practical solutions.

Dr. Pepper PhD. · 05-13-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yer Mom

ns_bast is a fantastic map and the past 20 times it's been up it's been votemapped off.

-Mom

I would have to agree with this statement

Donat · 05-13-2007, 12:47 PM

Heres an idea, instead of abolishing votemap enterily how about taking off the popular maps (shocking) that way they'll only get played in rotation or admin change. Also you could make the # of people needed to change higher, many things to do that would edit this.

And if people reallllly dislike the maps we have that much i'll have to actually start working on the TG one everyday instead of occasionally.... Speaking of which, has anyone seen lost?

ps (SEND ME YOUR MAP YERMO SO I CAN FIX IT AND YOU CAN CONTINUE WORKING ON IT) lol

micr0c0sm · 05-13-2007, 01:36 PM

I see machina and orbital played AT LEAST as much as veil, tanith, and eclipse and I am personally sick of orbital. I don't like when people throw out 'OMG ALL WE DO IS PLAY THE BIG 3' when that is completely not true. People might not realise it but the server populates with different players at different times. Maybe the time that YOU play the server most players like the big three but at other times the mapcycle is pretty varied. Now that kinda sucks as people have only certain times to play games but NOT EVERYONE will get what they want.

As Maps and Atlases said, shouldn't it be what's fair? Why can't we just show people that fun games can be had on shiva or other lesser played maps.

The only suggestion that makes some sense is that you cannot votemap a map that has been played in the last 3 rounds.

Here is the conundrum I see with all ns maps. The big three are the most popular because they are well made - that is they are balanced and offer a way to use ANY tactics or strategies in the game. They are the most 'open-ended' maps in the rotation. Most other maps (example: mineshaft) have some sort of limitation ( onos is really bad on it ) or eon ( its tougher to fade on ). There are 1000 different ways a round can go down on eon, but over 9000 on tanith or veil or eclipse. The issue is that the big three also expose ( to gamers who really try and know the game ) the best route to go down to win, and while there are some variations when people are indifferent they play these maps exactly the same. Which is why it gets boring. Rush cargo and/or chem. Hit base or double if they are in chem and you are not so great fade. Etc. Yes, these are good tactics but unless you have at least one very motivated person to try something new, the map feels stagnant. I think its the players and NOT the map. By playing limited maps you are forced to play different tactics and strategies, and maybe those will carry over to the big three.

There is a very simple solution to help vary the GAMEPLAY on tg, which I think is what people are really complaining about. Play captains games. If you volunteer as captain, you get to choose the map. It would be nice if you compromised with whomever the other volunteer captain is but it shouldn't be necessary. Now this puts the burden on 'having a good game' on the captain and he should be prepared to open people's eyes to lesser used tactics and strategies. I think more people volunteering on captains games will create more varied gameplay on any of the maps and be a lot more fun for most players.

P.S. I really would like to see mineshaft.

Zek · 05-13-2007, 03:51 PM

Please do NOT remove votemap to force people into playing maps they don't like, such as bast and machina. It's insulting to suggest that we should know better than to dislike these maps and need to be forced into playing them for our own good.

Votemap is not being abused. It's only used when an admin is not present to get off of maps that nobody likes, or change maps after a game when the time limit is still up. To remove votemap is to force people to play maps they don't like, which is dumb. If you make me play bast I will leave. And others will not come, because it's bast. Don't tell me I'll learn to like it, I've played it since 1.0. We play those maps once in a while, and that's more than enough.

Besides, the Big 3 has nowhere near the monopoly on playtime as people are suggesting. Look at the map list and tell me how many of them people will actually refuse to play on. Caged? Hera? Lost? Nothing? Lucid? Metal? Orbital? Origin? We play these maps all the time. If you want to know what the problem is, it's the fact that maps like bast and machina effectively reset the rotation by causing people to switch to popular maps, and that's why many maps never come up on their own. The solution here is to remove the bad maps, not force them.

Maps and Atlases · 05-13-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zek

Please do NOT remove votemap to force people into playing maps they don't like, such as bast and machina. It's insulting to suggest that we should know better than to dislike these maps and need to be forced into playing them for our own good.

Votemap is not being abused. It's only used when an admin is not present to get off of maps that nobody likes, or change maps after a game when the time limit is still up. To remove votemap is to force people to play maps they don't like, which is dumb. If you make me play bast I will leave. And others will not come, because it's bast. Don't tell me I'll learn to like it, I've played it since 1.0. We play those maps once in a while, and that's more than enough.

Besides, the Big 3 has nowhere near the monopoly on playtime as people are suggesting. Look at the map list and tell me how many of them people will actually refuse to play on. Caged? Hera? Lost? Nothing? Lucid? Metal? Orbital? Origin? We play these maps all the time. If you want to know what the problem is, it's the fact that maps like bast and machina effectively reset the rotation by causing people to switch to popular maps, and that's why many maps never come up on their own. The solution here is to remove the bad maps, not force them.

"

Yer Mom · 05-13-2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zek

Please do NOT remove votemap to force people into playing maps they don't like, such as bast and machina. It's insulting to suggest that we should know better than to dislike these maps and need to be forced into playing them for our own good.

Votemap is not being abused. It's only used when an admin is not present to get off of maps that nobody likes, or change maps after a game when the time limit is still up. To remove votemap is to force people to play maps they don't like, which is dumb. If you make me play bast I will leave. And others will not come, because it's bast. Don't tell me I'll learn to like it, I've played it since 1.0. We play those maps once in a while, and that's more than enough.

Besides, the Big 3 has nowhere near the monopoly on playtime as people are suggesting. Look at the map list and tell me how many of them people will actually refuse to play on. Caged? Hera? Lost? Nothing? Lucid? Metal? Orbital? Origin? We play these maps all the time. If you want to know what the problem is, it's the fact that maps like bast and machina effectively reset the rotation by causing people to switch to popular maps, and that's why many maps never come up on their own. The solution here is to remove the bad maps, not force them.

My question to your statement is who is to decide what the "bad maps" are? Agora is entertaining, yet it isn't on the server. Bast is apparently not entertaining, yet it IS on the server. The majority decides, then? I don't think so. Majority rules in most other situations, but this is one that it simply cannot because not everyone wants to play tanith. I agree with the aura of indifference in the server. Most people don't vote tanith because it's a good map or they like it, they just vote whatever whoever votes for first.

I'm not forcing you to do anything by playing bast. I like the map and the strategy it implies. The only "unbalanced" part of bast is tram tunnel, and you all know I'm speaking fact. Refinery is HUGE, but it's also easily sieged. Engine is annoying for aliens, but the corridor behind it offers a lot of cover for them as well, plus easy vent access. And I honestly do not have to comment on how un-alien friendly MS is in the map.

So really, you tell me. What's so bad about bast?

Quote:

Originally Posted by micr0c0sm

I see machina and orbital played AT LEAST as much as veil, tanith, and eclipse and I am personally sick of orbital. I don't like when people throw out 'OMG ALL WE DO IS PLAY THE BIG 3' when that is completely not true. People might not realise it but the server populates with different players at different times. Maybe the time that YOU play the server most players like the big three but at other times the mapcycle is pretty varied. Now that kinda sucks as people have only certain times to play games but NOT EVERYONE will get what they want.

As Maps and Atlases said, shouldn't it be what's fair? Why can't we just show people that fun games can be had on shiva or other lesser played maps.

The only suggestion that makes some sense is that you cannot votemap a map that has been played in the last 3 rounds.

Here is the conundrum I see with all ns maps. The big three are the most popular because they are well made - that is they are balanced and offer a way to use ANY tactics or strategies in the game. They are the most 'open-ended' maps in the rotation. Most other maps (example: mineshaft) have some sort of limitation ( onos is really bad on it ) or eon ( its tougher to fade on ). There are 1000 different ways a round can go down on eon, but over 9000 on tanith or veil or eclipse. The issue is that the big three also expose ( to gamers who really try and know the game ) the best route to go down to win, and while there are some variations when people are indifferent they play these maps exactly the same. Which is why it gets boring. Rush cargo and/or chem. Hit base or double if they are in chem and you are not so great fade. Etc. Yes, these are good tactics but unless you have at least one very motivated person to try something new, the map feels stagnant. I think its the players and NOT the map. By playing limited maps you are forced to play different tactics and strategies, and maybe those will carry over to the big three.

There is a very simple solution to help vary the GAMEPLAY on tg, which I think is what people are really complaining about. Play captains games. If you volunteer as captain, you get to choose the map. It would be nice if you compromised with whomever the other volunteer captain is but it shouldn't be necessary. Now this puts the burden on 'having a good game' on the captain and he should be prepared to open people's eyes to lesser used tactics and strategies. I think more people volunteering on captains games will create more varied gameplay on any of the maps and be a lot more fun for most players.

P.S. I really would like to see mineshaft.

I have to disagree with this as well. It's not the fact that they are played every 30 minutes, but the fact that they are played so many times a day. I'm sick of tanith on such a level that I normally leave the server when it comes up. It's OVERPLAYED bad. Playing captains all the time isn't going to solve anything because the majority of the players here are all infatuated with the big three so much that it'll end up on those three maps every time.

I'd also LOVE to know what everyone has against machina. Sure, it's a large map. Sure, it has a huge pit that fades die in a lot on accident, but that's part of the game, and such should be in every map. We've all fallen in love with these "good maps" because they're played so often and we know them so well, not because they're "good maps." Tanith is just as unbalanced as machina is, and just as annoying too. You're all used to a normality that's becoming sickening to me. When I look at machina and bast's mini-maps I see varying types of geometry in these rooms. There are crooked, curved, and slanted rooms in both of those maps. When I look at tanith, or veil for that matter, all the rooms are square connected by corridors. I think that's what's so uncomfortable to people.

soFi · 05-13-2007, 09:11 PM

i think some people just dont like machina, shiva and bast. its all subject to personal opinion but those maps are flawed in huge ways. no one is in a race to change it your so called 'big 3' anyway, i think its being overblown. veil, tanith, lost, metal, caged, eclipse, orbital, origin and caged to some extent are all great maps. even maps like eon(my personal favorite) and lucid are good enough to be in the map rotation. you keep pushing machina on TG and no one sees that people leave right and left when it comes up, same with bast. and if youre saying tough luck to people who dont want to play it, fine. i usually leave and do something else for 30 minutes when machina rolls around, youre server isnt entitled for people to stay and play machina(in current state). touche touche

ps- agora isnt an official map anymore, probably why its not on the server. orbital isnt either but it was played by the competitive community. "bad" maps are decided by a consensus majority of players, just like the majority consensus of players voting off "certain" maps happens quite often. "bad" and being voted off have a direct correlation. i'd include nancy and to a certain extent nothing as "bad" maps. nancy is beyond description, i'd have a page long of complaints for nancy and nothing's elevators are just stupid.

aeroripper · 05-13-2007, 10:41 PM

The one thing I've learned about this sort of thing is that you can't please everyone. I will try to find middle ground with maps people generally like, but I can't guarantee everyone will like every map that's in rotation. The only thing I can advise is if this map comes up and you hate it, please leave the server until its over. You will accomplish nothing but drag your team morale down by complaining about the map the whole time.

Now if there comes a time where >90% of people don't want to play a map, you're welcome to get a poll setup in another thread with something along the lines of:

"Remove [map] Poll" and see how it fares.

As far as Machina is concerned, I am not seeing unanimous opinions for removal, either here or on the server. I see some for removal of tanith, veil, eclipse and others for the removal of bast\machina and "bad maps". I've seen machina votemapped down before along with bast and other "bad" maps. I've also seen lots of good games on these maps on a regular basis. Until there is a time when a strong majority can decide whether they want machina\bast\etc... to get the boot, they will have a home in the rotation on a regular basis. I would recommend getting a poll organized for this purpose.

Now as for which order the maps rotate, I can happily alter on a semi-regular basis. Typically I try to keep a smaller map for the first rotation map after combat so it will be easy to play in a 6v6 setting. Eclipse usually fulfills that role well but I can try some others if people are getting bored of that.

I've changed the mapcycle to the following:

Quote:

co_faceoff "\minplayers\0\maxplayers\10\"
co_pulse "\minplayers\0\maxplayers\10\"
co_core "\minplayers\0\maxplayers\10\"
co_kestrel "\minplayers\8\maxplayers\10\"
co_daimos "\minplayers\8\maxplayers\10\"
co_niveus "\minplayers\4\maxplayers\10\"
co_angst "\minplayers\0\maxplayers\10\"
co_sava "\minplayers\3\maxplayers\10\"
co_ulysses "\minplayers\4\maxplayers\10\"
co_umbra "\minplayers\8\maxplayers\10\"

ns_hera "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_nancy "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_origin "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_ayumi "\minplayers\11\maxplayers\32\"
ns_nothing "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\24\"
ns_caged "\minplayers\11\maxplayers\24\"
ns_lost "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\24\"
ns_machina "\minplayers\14\maxplayers\32\"
ns_veil "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_altair "\minplayers\11\maxplayers\32\"
ns_tanith "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_eon "\minplayers\11\maxplayers\32\"
ns_metal "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_orbital_tg "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_bast "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"

Feel free to offer input. Also, the official announcements mapcycle has been updated:

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/natural...-rotation.html

Maps and Atlases · 05-13-2007, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroripper

The one thing I've learned about this sort of thing is that you can't please everyone. I will try to find middle ground with maps people generally like, but I can't guarantee everyone will like every map that's in rotation. The only thing I can advise is if this map comes up and you hate it, please leave the server until its over. You will accomplish nothing but drag your team morale down by complaining about the map the whole time.

Now if there comes a time where >90% of people don't want to play a map, you're welcome to get a poll setup in another thread with something along the lines of:

"Remove [map] Poll" and see how it fares.

As far as Machina is concerned, I am not seeing unanimous opinions for removal, either here or on the server. I see some for removal of tanith, veil, eclipse and others for the removal of bast\machina and "bad maps". I've seen machina votemapped down before along with bast and other "bad" maps. I've also seen lots of good games on these maps on a regular basis. Until there is a time when a strong majority can decide whether they want machina\bast\etc... to get the boot, they will have a home in the rotation on a regular basis. I would recommend getting a poll organized for this purpose.

Now as for which order the maps rotate, I can happily alter on a semi-regular basis. Typically I try to keep a smaller map for the first rotation map after combat so it will be easy to play in a 6v6 setting. Eclipse usually fulfills that role well but I can try some others if people are getting bored of that.

I've changed the mapcycle to the following:

Feel free to offer input.

Is there any way you could also post the mapcycle before that?

aeroripper · 05-13-2007, 11:14 PM

Yes, previous mapcycle:

Quote:

co_faceoff "\minplayers\0\maxplayers\10\"
co_pulse "\minplayers\0\maxplayers\10\"
co_core "\minplayers\0\maxplayers\10\"
co_kestrel "\minplayers\8\maxplayers\10\"
co_daimos "\minplayers\8\maxplayers\10\"
co_niveus "\minplayers\4\maxplayers\10\"
co_angst "\minplayers\0\maxplayers\10\"
co_sava "\minplayers\3\maxplayers\10\"
co_ulysses "\minplayers\4\maxplayers\10\"
co_umbra "\minplayers\8\maxplayers\10\"

ns_eclipse "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_lost "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_caged "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_origin "\minplayers\11\maxplayers\32\"
ns_orbital_tg "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\24\"
ns_veil "\minplayers\11\maxplayers\24\"
ns_machina "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\24\"
ns_tanith "\minplayers\11\maxplayers\32\"
ns_bast "\minplayers\14\maxplayers\32\"
ns_hera "\minplayers\11\maxplayers\32\"
ns_nancy "\minplayers\13\maxplayers\32\"
ns_altair "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_nothing "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_ayumi "\minplayers\11\maxplayers\32\"
ns_lucid "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"
ns_metal "\minplayers\12\maxplayers\32\"

**Eternaly_Lost** · 05-14-2007, 01:37 AM

The reason that people hate machina, is that it does not fit the cookie cutter plan that other maps fit.

On other maps, you can let the marines take most of the nodes, and with a reasonable team, you can still win.

On machina, if you don't take down marine nodes, you need to be really out skilling the marines to win.

I think that most of the problem with the map is that most people have yet to give it anywhere as much thought and going over as some of the others, and as such, they try to use the standard cookie plan that works on the big 3 as you call them, only to have it blow up in there faces bad, so they start to call the map unbalanced, and unfair.

I remember a game on ns_rampage after it got put back on to the server, I remember good games on the map, as both sides, before. After that round, people were calling for it removal, and saying that it was a bad map. The thing was, it was not a bad of a map, as much as they did not know how to handle it yet, and did not want to put the effort in attemping to learn how to correctly fight on it.

(On a side note, I am still working on my hive room, i just hit a slight problem with my finals coming up, and I should be able to resume work on it soon. )

Ahnteis · 05-14-2007, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lush

What would be cool, is if it was impossible to vote for one of these maps (or maybe any map) if it has been played within the past 4 or 5 rounds.

FTW.

EDIT: And I prefer shorter map timelimits (except captain games of course). I hate having an ugly, one-sided NS game and then being forced to play the same map again.

Donat · 05-14-2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eternaly_Lost

The reason that people hate machina, is that it does not fit the cookie cutter plan that other maps fit.

Lost! your alive! How goes your hive or have you been busy with other things?

I have no clue if my map will be cookie cutter or not, honestly i could probly make it tommrow but it would be boring as hell and look like a block... I'm taking time to make sure it looks good so people don't just yell bleh and run away...

Also taking the time to try to think of loads of side routes and vents, and how thoes tie in with the overall feel of the map. I mean i can make as many room as i want but if it doesn't look structerly like its not ment to be there then its all rooms with no style...

05-13-2007, 10:58 AM	#16 (permalink)
blu.knight Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 446	Re: Map Request I don't think removing votemap is really the solution... but then again, I saw some pretty terrible behavior on the server the other day... The entire alien team tried to use votemap to end the game because they were losing. Seemed pretty terrible.

05-13-2007, 12:47 PM	#19 (permalink)
Donat Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 263	Re: Map Request Heres an idea, instead of abolishing votemap enterily how about taking off the popular maps (shocking) that way they'll only get played in rotation or admin change. Also you could make the # of people needed to change higher, many things to do that would edit this. And if people reallllly dislike the maps we have that much i'll have to actually start working on the TG one everyday instead of occasionally.... Speaking of which, has anyone seen lost? ps (SEND ME YOUR MAP YERMO SO I CAN FIX IT AND YOU CAN CONTINUE WORKING ON IT) lol __________________

05-13-2007, 01:36 PM	#20 (permalink)
micr0c0sm Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 660	Re: Map Request I see machina and orbital played AT LEAST as much as veil, tanith, and eclipse and I am personally sick of orbital. I don't like when people throw out 'OMG ALL WE DO IS PLAY THE BIG 3' when that is completely not true. People might not realise it but the server populates with different players at different times. Maybe the time that YOU play the server most players like the big three but at other times the mapcycle is pretty varied. Now that kinda sucks as people have only certain times to play games but NOT EVERYONE will get what they want. As Maps and Atlases said, shouldn't it be what's fair? Why can't we just show people that fun games can be had on shiva or other lesser played maps. The only suggestion that makes some sense is that you cannot votemap a map that has been played in the last 3 rounds. Here is the conundrum I see with all ns maps. The big three are the most popular because they are well made - that is they are balanced and offer a way to use ANY tactics or strategies in the game. They are the most 'open-ended' maps in the rotation. Most other maps (example: mineshaft) have some sort of limitation ( onos is really bad on it ) or eon ( its tougher to fade on ). There are 1000 different ways a round can go down on eon, but over 9000 on tanith or veil or eclipse. The issue is that the big three also expose ( to gamers who really try and know the game ) the best route to go down to win, and while there are some variations when people are indifferent they play these maps exactly the same. Which is why it gets boring. Rush cargo and/or chem. Hit base or double if they are in chem and you are not so great fade. Etc. Yes, these are good tactics but unless you have at least one very motivated person to try something new, the map feels stagnant. I think its the players and NOT the map. By playing limited maps you are forced to play different tactics and strategies, and maybe those will carry over to the big three. There is a very simple solution to help vary the GAMEPLAY on tg, which I think is what people are really complaining about. Play captains games. If you volunteer as captain, you get to choose the map. It would be nice if you compromised with whomever the other volunteer captain is but it shouldn't be necessary. Now this puts the burden on 'having a good game' on the captain and he should be prepared to open people's eyes to lesser used tactics and strategies. I think more people volunteering on captains games will create more varied gameplay on any of the maps and be a lot more fun for most players. P.S. I really would like to see mineshaft.

05-13-2007, 03:51 PM	#21 (permalink)
Zek Join Date: Jun 2003 Age: 21 Posts: 597	Re: Map Request Please do NOT remove votemap to force people into playing maps they don't like, such as bast and machina. It's insulting to suggest that we should know better than to dislike these maps and need to be forced into playing them for our own good. Votemap is not being abused. It's only used when an admin is not present to get off of maps that nobody likes, or change maps after a game when the time limit is still up. To remove votemap is to force people to play maps they don't like, which is dumb. If you make me play bast I will leave. And others will not come, because it's bast. Don't tell me I'll learn to like it, I've played it since 1.0. We play those maps once in a while, and that's more than enough. Besides, the Big 3 has nowhere near the monopoly on playtime as people are suggesting. Look at the map list and tell me how many of them people will actually refuse to play on. Caged? Hera? Lost? Nothing? Lucid? Metal? Orbital? Origin? We play these maps all the time. If you want to know what the problem is, it's the fact that maps like bast and machina effectively reset the rotation by causing people to switch to popular maps, and that's why many maps never come up on their own. The solution here is to remove the bad maps, not force them.

05-13-2007, 09:11 PM	#24 (permalink)
soFi Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Longueuil, QC, Canada Posts: 17	Re: Map Request i think some people just dont like machina, shiva and bast. its all subject to personal opinion but those maps are flawed in huge ways. no one is in a race to change it your so called 'big 3' anyway, i think its being overblown. veil, tanith, lost, metal, caged, eclipse, orbital, origin and caged to some extent are all great maps. even maps like eon(my personal favorite) and lucid are good enough to be in the map rotation. you keep pushing machina on TG and no one sees that people leave right and left when it comes up, same with bast. and if youre saying tough luck to people who dont want to play it, fine. i usually leave and do something else for 30 minutes when machina rolls around, youre server isnt entitled for people to stay and play machina(in current state). touche touche ps- agora isnt an official map anymore, probably why its not on the server. orbital isnt either but it was played by the competitive community. "bad" maps are decided by a consensus majority of players, just like the majority consensus of players voting off "certain" maps happens quite often. "bad" and being voted off have a direct correlation. i'd include nancy and to a certain extent nothing as "bad" maps. nancy is beyond description, i'd have a page long of complaints for nancy and nothing's elevators are just stupid. __________________ Last edited by soFi; 05-13-2007 at 09:28 PM.

05-14-2007, 01:37 AM	#28 (permalink)
Eternaly_Lost Join Date: May 2005 Location: Milford MA Age: 21 Posts: 358	Re: Map Request The reason that people hate machina, is that it does not fit the cookie cutter plan that other maps fit. On other maps, you can let the marines take most of the nodes, and with a reasonable team, you can still win. On machina, if you don't take down marine nodes, you need to be really out skilling the marines to win. I think that most of the problem with the map is that most people have yet to give it anywhere as much thought and going over as some of the others, and as such, they try to use the standard cookie plan that works on the big 3 as you call them, only to have it blow up in there faces bad, so they start to call the map unbalanced, and unfair. I remember a game on ns_rampage after it got put back on to the server, I remember good games on the map, as both sides, before. After that round, people were calling for it removal, and saying that it was a bad map. The thing was, it was not a bad of a map, as much as they did not know how to handle it yet, and did not want to put the effort in attemping to learn how to correctly fight on it. (On a side note, I am still working on my hive room, i just hit a slight problem with my finals coming up, and I should be able to resume work on it soon. ) __________________ Current game name : \|TG\| Lost the Phantom Thief

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