TG Community map

[Card AKA Karrd]

For one, TG puts emphasis on teamwork and coordination. We're supposed to treat the other players with respect, and generally avoid doing things that should be considered cheap. That's pretty much my take on it, I'm sure it's different for some of you.

And you seem to think I'm trying to make a drastic change to the game itself, I'm not. Not exactly at least. In an online multiplayer game the significant aspects are Play concept, Game engine, and Setting/level design. I'm not trying to do anything to the first two, all I'm suggesting is to use the third to try to balance out a flaw in the gameplay. And saying the fade isn't unbalanced would suggest you haven't spent much time at the NS forums when they were up. I must have seen hundreds of posts about the problem of uber-fades (a number of which by people on the dev team), and only a few that thought the fade wasn't unbalanced.

The sum of the problem with fades is that in the hands of a really good player, they can single handedly prevent the marine team from easily doing anything. They can't do everything for thier team, that's not what I'm saying, the rest of the team still must do it's job. But, a single uber-fade can single handedly shut down the marine team. And that's the problem I suggest we balance if we make a map.

The solution seems to be simple: limit where the fade can be useful. MS is one place that we could make anti-fade. That means someone other than a single fade would have to be involved when MS is attacked. Placing a number of obsticles in a hive is another good idea. It would both make it so a fade can't singlehandedly stop an attack, while at the same time giving cover to skulks, gorges, lerks and onos. It doesn't make a fade useless, it just makes it so they can't do it all alone.

I suggest limiting the fades usefulness in only a small number of areas:
1 hive
2 paths to different hives (leading to hives it is unhindered in defending)
Marine Start (if nothing else this)
1/2 the resource nodes (some near MS, some near the hives)

Does this nerf the fade? No. It still has full usefullness in 2 of the hives, all the walkways to another hive, probably at least 2 other paths to hives, and half the resourcenodes. An average or below average fade won't even notice the difference, an uberfade though now actually has to rely on his team for defending those areas it is hindered in. What is the problem with that? That the fade can't be useful everywhere? That it can't trap marines in spawn on it's own?



And keep in mind, at this point these are just ideas. Nothing is set in stone, we don't even really have anyone in charge (I may or may not sound like I've been trying to be in charge, but I don't want to be. I don't have quite the respect, experience and pull to do that. What I am, is an advocate for getting this done.). For now we're just bouncing ideas. If you don't like a part of this idea, say something now about what it is you don't like. Don't say we should scrap the whole project becuase you disagree with one (at this point) theoretical aspect of it.

[Card AKA Karrd]

I must be getting slow in my typing, 2 responses while I typed my one...

Just a thought for something fun to do while waiting to start a game: see if we could make a few pong games in the ready room. Give everyone something to do while waiting for more people to start. It should be somewhat simple to do (the games older than some of the people on the server).


Another idea, make a room in the map with two switches like the one I described (recessed to only gorge spit or a commander can activate them) needed to open it. You'd have to hit both switches at once to open the room, so only a gorge and commander working together could open it. And put whatever weird/fun stuff you want in it. Such as Whack-a-skulk, and marine bowling.

[Zek]

And you seem to think I'm trying to make a drastic change to the game itself, I'm not. Not exactly at least. In an online multiplayer game the significant aspects are Play concept, Game engine, and Setting/level design. I'm not trying to do anything to the first two, all I'm suggesting is to use the third to try to balance out a flaw in the gameplay.

Exactly - you're trying to fix perceived flaws in the gameplay by making significant map alterations. I'm saying that the game will not be balanced if you try to play it on a map that's designed for a significantly different style of play than the official ones.

And saying the fade isn't unbalanced would suggest you haven't spent much time at the NS forums when they were up. I must have seen hundreds of posts about the problem of uber-fades (a number of which by people on the dev team), and only a few that thought the fade wasn't unbalanced.

Unbalanced how? Aliens as a team aren't overpowered. Maybe you feel a Fade is too much power for one player to wield, but this is how the game is structured. Aliens need their super-soldiers to counteract the disadvantages of their support structure. Generally you won't see more than one or two Fades for the better part of a game, but an entire marine team can be outfitted with shotties for about the same res cost. The high personal cost of going Fade prevents their presence in large numbers. When you nerf one aspect of the alien team, you indirectly buff a number of things on the marine side, and vice versa. If Fades are significantly less effective in your map, who's going to pick up the slack? Certainly not skulks once the marines are sufficiently teched up. This game's balance is very precarious and you can't possibly expect to keep the teams evenly matched once you start fiddling so much with something as important as map layout.

The sum of the problem with fades is that in the hands of a really good player, they can single handedly prevent the marine team from easily doing anything. They can't do everything for thier team, that's not what I'm saying, the rest of the team still must do it's job. But, a single uber-fade can single handedly shut down the marine team. And that's the problem I suggest we balance if we make a map.

If you "balance" that problem, you will create an imbalance on the grand scale of the game. Like I explained earlier, it's necessary for the game's balance that Fades be as effective as multiple marines. If the marines are sufficiently skilled AND equipped, the Fade is not nearly as dangerous as you suggest.

The solution seems to be simple: limit where the fade can be useful. MS is one place that we could make anti-fade. That means someone other than a single fade would have to be involved when MS is attacked. Placing a number of obsticles in a hive is another good idea. It would both make it so a fade can't singlehandedly stop an attack, while at the same time giving cover to skulks, gorges, lerks and onos. It doesn't make a fade useless, it just makes it so they can't do it all alone.

Cover is not nearly enough to allow skulks to compete against HA trains. Same goes for Lerks. Onoses, on the other hand, would become massively overpowered thanks to Stomp. When all the marines are crammed into one place, an Adrenaline Onos can shut them down much more easily than a Fade ever could.

I suggest limiting the fades usefulness in only a small number of areas:
1 hive
2 paths to different hives (leading to hives it is unhindered in defending)
Marine Start (if nothing else this)
1/2 the resource nodes (some near MS, some near the hives)

Does this nerf the fade? No. It still has full usefullness in 2 of the hives, all the walkways to another hive, probably at least 2 other paths to hives, and half the resourcenodes. An average or below average fade won't even notice the difference, an uberfade though now actually has to rely on his team for defending those areas it is hindered in. What is the problem with that? That the fade can't be useful everywhere? That it can't trap marines in spawn on it's own?

This uberfade argument has been around for a very long time, yet somehow the marines still keep managing to kill them. My understanding is that marines are currently seen as the dominant team in 3.1. Frankly I think the marine team just gets frustrated that one alien player is putting up so much resistance against so many marine players, but again, you have to look deeper into the issue than that. Marines have the advantage of numbers thanks to their res and support structure. In a 6v6 game you can have 5 marines fully decked out at any given time, but aliens will usually only have one Fade and a handful of lower lifeforms available for defense for the better part of the game. Marines can all easily focus fire on one target from a distance, but alien units have to be much more independent. The game has been balanced for the alien team to have a handful of higher lifeforms to oppose a well-equipped team of marines.

And keep in mind, at this point these are just ideas. Nothing is set in stone, we don't even really have anyone in charge (I may or may not sound like I've been trying to be in charge, but I don't want to be. I don't have quite the respect, experience and pull to do that. What I am, is an advocate for getting this done.). For now we're just bouncing ideas. If you don't like a part of this idea, say something now about what it is you don't like. Don't say we should scrap the whole project becuase you disagree with one (at this point) theoretical aspect of it.

I disagree with your idea that it's possible to effectively rebalance the game by simply altering the map layout. This game is way too complex to get away with something like that. If you do this I guarantee the game will be less balanced than it is now. If you guys want to make a community map I have no issue with it, but remember your limitations. You're making a map for a game that has been balanced around its official maps; don't forget that.

[LazyEye]

Here are a few things I think every ns map needs.

1) Marine friendly marine start, marine start should have a low ceiling and door ways or small passages for the exits, there should be little to no obstacles like boxes and things in marine start.

2) A rt in each hive and a capable rt for aliens near each hive that is closer to the hive than marine start. This gives aliens a chance to hold nodes they will cap 1 node outside a hive and another node inside the hive they want to put up.

3) 2 rt closer to marine start than one of the hives or a somewhat equal distance.

4) A balance of alien friendly and marine friendly rooms. Some examples:

Alien friendly: obstacles to hide behind in the room, tight corners, short hallways, vents, larger doorways, high ceilings, more exits/entrances

Marine friendly: long hallways, low ceilings, less clutter, small doorways, less exits/entrances.

Remember the more stuff put into a room greatly increases the chance of an alien getting a kill comparied to the marine sided room where the alien will stuff have a good chance if played right.

A good set up would be alien friendly hives with a marine friendly room outside of the hive (a siege spot) with alien friendly rooms leading up to that siege spot. Also a marine friendly marine start with 2 marine friendly rt near.

Sometimes maps can focus on being marine sided or alien sided and still be a good map (ns_veil for marines)

Another good point is it should take about the same amount of walk time to go to each of the alien hives from marine start.

Edit: I don't really know why we are talking about "uberfades" in this thread, on every ns map fades are killable it just takes teamwork. I pretty much agree with all of zek's points so I wont restate what he has said.

[Card AKA Karrd]

I personally think it's possible to balance the game out more. And keep in mind I'm not talking about normal-good fades, I'm talking about the fades that can get 100+kills per life, that can stop the entire marine team. That said, if you don't think it's doable, then we don't have to do it. The reason why I suggested so much discussion before actually making the map is exactly for this reason.

Might I suggest we keep a fade unfriendly MS at least. While most of the players at TG aren't cheap enough to do it, fades cleaning out MS singlehandedly are something I'm sure we all want to prevent.


On another note, Hives. Something I'd love to see done would be to design the hives in such a way that spawn camping is very difficult. The easiest way I can think of to do this is to have multipul objects in the hive that make it impossible for 1-2 marines to keep a line of sight on more than half the spawnpoints at once. Let me make it clear though I don't suggest protecting the hive, I only suggest protecting the spawnpoints.

Oh, and does anyone have any objection to the map being named NS_tactical, it seems appropriate.

[DON.MAC]

As far as I'm concerned, there is no "cheap" in NS (classic).

[Wyzcrak]

I'm not a big fan of calling something you're selling that which you want it to be.

Make it what it is. Your target market will come to know it regardless of what it's called.

[[Taco]Maniac]

What's the problem with spawn camping? I think you're trying to do too much with this map. How about focusing on building a nice looking map that is fun to play on.

[Card AKA Karrd]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like being spawn camped less than 8 minutes into a game. I like it even less when it's a single person doing the camping.

It isn't that I'm against spawn camping, it's that I'm against easy spawn camping. I find it much more satisfying to have to work to get that killing blow in, rather than getting 1 person in a lucky position that ends the game then and there. For me, 1 person camping spawn and easily winning the game just isn't something to be particularly proud of. It's a different tale if that one person has to fight tooth and nail to achieve it though. Then it's not one person getting in a lucky shot, it's one person fighting an awsome game to hold the spawn. That's why I personally am in favor of a map that makes spawn camping difficult for one or two people to do.

I want spawn camping to be either an amazing feat of skill not often seen, or a finishing blow from a well conducted attack. I don't want it to happen early on in the game. Yeah, you may win, but it's not becuase you fought hard for it, it's becuase you took a quick shot and ended the game before it could get interesting. And I believe that goes well with the ideas of TG, as stated in the primer.



And let me point out something again, this is one map that would be added to the server. It's not an overhaul of the server. Even if we did end up making a map that plays a little differently, it's not going to be forced on anyone to play it. I personally like change, particularly change for the better.



And I guess it is a little early for choosing a name. You have a good point there.

[OP8]

I hope I'm not too far into posting in this thread to have this post be overlooked. I want to repost my last comments from another topic in hopes maybe to provide insperation for some. If you read anything at all of my thoughts, I request that it be this paragraph:

"I feel that for a new map to be worth the time it takes to build, it has to be unique and respectively thought out and beautifull. I have seen so many custom maps that are just the same thing with a few different hallways and textures. I don't mean to belittle the mapping community, but I have seen too much of the same thing... too many damned cargo bays and the like. I personnally have scrapped many designs halfway through when I realized my project had become too "common". There is necessity in making something that stands out and is memorable and still accomplishes stability within balance. This is NOT an easy task, and I think we need to remember that point if we are to accept this task. I don't think that demand as an inhibition, but more a call for creativity and a goal that inspires me to push what can and can't be done. I don't want to build yet another failed improvement to bast or eclipse. I want to build something that Is unique to us, and something all the participants can be proud of saying they had a part in. I don't think we should build things just cause we can or for the sake of it. BUT- I do think we deserve to have something that is our own. "Just for the sake of it" is what they do on public servers. The TG community is what we get when people make something thier own. Maybe some feel united by that more than others, But I want to be more than just another joe with a shirtgun and l337 scripts. Shall we make our own name then? I think we can and should.
OP8."

The rest of this post is optional reading, but may be worth it to some folks.
To Zek: I feel somewht disjointed by your disaproval of the charecter of this idea and it's participants. It sounds to me like you'r yelling at us and saying that we just have no talent. that who the hell are we to think we could make something good. that theres no need to try to make something better and that everything about this game is excactly as it was meant to be as declared by god. I personally feel insulted by your lack of aknowlegement to the abilities of the members of this group. Hearing you say that a map or enviorment that hasnt even been created yet, stands no chance for excelence is somewhat irritating. Hearing you say that one map can't make a difference because they are all just the same thing leads me to believe you know nothing about design strategy at all. I think you underestimate the concept of creation and the fact that if it werent for the mentality and fervor of people wanting to make something unique and thier own, WE WOULDNT HAVE NS TO BEGIN WITH..
This project is on pure volunteer basis and I'm sure that those people involved tire of being put down because they want to try something new. I recall the topic that this thread started on and remember that it was about wanting Ideas and seeing who was interested in coming up with new things. I don't think it's appropriate to turn it into a slur on the people who want to be involved. This is the place for people who want to make a difference and NOT for those who just want to prevent others from trying. Although I'm aware that you havnt said any of these things directly, I think more than just a few of us get these impresions by the repulsion you show to this idea and your justifications. Take it to another topic.
Lastly, I'd like to relieve you of needing to think I mean any of this as a personal attack because it isn't. I you feel the need to think it is then I appologize now. I'm sorry you had to be the martyr for my dissaproval, but you have had the most negative things to say and made for an easy target.
If you have any Ideas that you think could help this project, we would be honored to accept them. That is what this post is about. Otherwise, to you and all that share the veiw, go interupt a different thread with your "you are all destined for failure" attitude.

Sorry all, I just had to get that off my chest.
I will post about the technical restraints of some aformentioned ideas, mapping guidlines, engine restrictions and common made mistakes in map design tommorow. I have a lot to say in these regards, unfortunately all my time has just been consumed justifying the validity of this project in the first place. Hopefully I wont have to do that again.
Oh, P.s. Karrd, and those who have been constructive, keep up the good work and keep the ideas flowing.
OP8.

[Wyzcrak]

Is it just me, or is it getting a little hot in here?

PM me if you want to play a primary role in creating a map somehow unique to the practices and interests which make our NS gameplay unique enough to drive us here night after night.

If I get even five PMs saying you'll spend very real time working toward the success of this map, be it because you want to map, test, design, discuss.. whatever.... then I'll arrange for you guys to have a venue for doing so here. If you PM me, tell me what talent you'd like to offer.

I've got concerns which, after discussion, will turn into boundaries around the design of any map that's going to officially associated with Tactical Gamer. While those boundaries aren't mind-blowing, they're very moot unless I'm convinced this is actually going to happen.

If you're really interested in this happening as a community-sponsored event, PM me. If the support/interest isn't there enough to send a few PMs, a conversation about it answers to the .. ickyness... bubbling in this thread.