Card AKA Karrd

The name says it all. I've seen more than a few topics on fading, but I've not seen anything on countering fades. I was hoping a few people would be willing to discuss their experiences and ideas when it came to neutralizing fades.

I've got a number of ideas as to different counters, but I wanted to see first what others have tried already (While I'm hardly new to NS I haven't been around for years like many of you, and therefore have not had as much experience at it.)

Spyder

Weapons and block is still the best way to take a fade out.
HMG's can work better than shotties even.

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TheFeniX

Whether in Real war or video games: the side with the highest rate of speed can choose when and where to engage his enemies. The good fades do so well because they engage marines only when they are in an advantageous position.

You don't have to kill the fade to win a game of NS, you just have to take away his ability to determine the outcome of the game or "force his hand" by making him engage you on your terms rather than his . There are many ways to do this:

1. Attacking a hive: usually based around getting a TF up. Shotgun rushes are meant to kill hives, not fades.
2. Attacking res nodes.
3. Using Motion tracking and groups of marines: in the event you see the red blip coming in fast, you can take positions at doors to trap the fade and shut him down (I love it when it's just LMGers too).

Never hunt a fade, it wastes time and resources. He will happily lead you to your doom. Whether this is at his hands, or an ambush of skulks is up to him.

In a perfect game, a fade would die only when he's out of hives and his health slowly ticks away, steaming from the knowledge that his presense was unable to affect the outcome of the match.

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RGM-79N_GM_CUstom

Best way to counter a fade is weapon ups and HMGs. Forget about shotguns nothing scares an average fade more then 20/22/24/26 damage at 10 rounds a second. Only thing is it won't scare those super fades.

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Card AKA Karrd

I thought it would be obvious, but weapons are not what we're discussing here (they aren't Strategy, Tactics, or tips).

In response to fenix's comment, I have a few things to say:

1) while speed is useful, in real war, and in objective/strategic games, it doesn't have a major impact on when and where the battles are fought (and before anyone says anything, in real war, the speed at which something moves is ultimately the speed at which it's supply line moves). When the objective is anything other than just kill the other side, speed has little effect on where and when the battle will be fought.

2) 1&2 are basically saying to try and ignore the fade, something that is extremely difficult to do if the fade is more than half-way competent. At least that's what it sounds like to me.


So far we have these:

Tactics-
-Blocking- The most common counter. When it works it works, but requirements of luck, teamwork, and good timing (not to mention suprise) make it unreliable.

-TF hive rush- if I understand this correctly, this means getting a TF and PG up at the hive, making it so hit and run attacks by the fade are ineffective, allowing you to concentrate on the hive. There's two big obvious flaws with this, it takes alot of res and it takes alot of time (relatively speaking).

Strategys-
-Attempt to ignore/circumvent the fade- I don't really see how this could ever really work if the fade is competent.

Tips-
-Bring a big gun-


So what else is there out there? I'm trying to have a real discussion and debate, so if you disagree, tell me and explain your reason why. And take a serious look at the situation, look at the flaws as well as the advantages.

Pokerface

I don't know... I think in THIS game, at least, weapons ARE a tactic, since to get the ones we're discussing require planning and resources to even get in the hands of your marines.

A fade is a lone unit in the game; I'm failing to see what more you're looking for besides "how to kill it" and "how to not let it kill you", which the things mentioned have done.

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TheFeniX

The only reason good fades dominate is because they can retreat whenever they want from a location they chose to engage you.

Supply lines is a red herring because in the thick of combat, you aren't worried about supply lines.

Speed is a MAJOR issue in any combat application. Feel free to argue, but it's why bunnyhopping in so effective in CS. The bunnyhoper has the speed advantage and can decide where to engage. If an enemy jet has 4 times your speed and manuverability and is piloted by a competant pilot: you are going to die.

Ignore != remove his ability to decide the fate of the game. Fade hunting is stupid and any commander who attempts it (9 times out of 10) should be ejected.

With welders and good upgrades combined with smart marines, the fade can just sit there and complain while I siege his hive.

Have you tried a shotgun rush in the new beta? God knows I have.

I've won games without killing the fade. Sure it's harder, but easier than hunting the fade all day long.

I also keep an eye on the map and try to have my marines meet at an area where the fade might head to and that is not a good place for him to engage. But if I have to choose between fighting the fade or killing at RT/hive: screw the fade.

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Zek

Fenix knows what he's talking about. To kill a fade all you really need is weapon upgrades and a couple shotties or HMGs. #1 most important thing to remember beyond that is that you're not out there to hunt a Fade; that's impossible if he knows what he's doing. You're out there to accomplish your other objectives, and you just want to protect yourself from the Fade until you've done so. If he screws up, you can kill him in the process, and that's even better. There is no strategy that's guaranteed to work because they all rely on the Fade falling for it or getting in over his head. Remember, it's entirely possible to win a game without ever killing the Fade if he's really cautious. Make sure your marines have their priorities straight.

TheFeniX

I made Lazyeye get "turreted" to death as fade, by using an eleced TF and turrets in Cargo, then surprising him with a few LMGers. I've put marines in position to wax pretty damn good fades with Lvl 1 LMGs. I've had fades get "mined" to death because I knew they were waiting for us to attack the building hive so they could movement over, so I had marines lay 4 packs of mines down everywhere. I've had my marines weld vents shut and killing fades that way.

If the fades had been able to choose when/where to engage my marines in those situations, that never would have happened. I strip them of choices and kill them without blowing 50 res on weapons.

It's always a gamble, but the best I can do is put my marines in a position to do damage and hope they can shoot straight.

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HairyNevus

When you fight a fade, don't give up. Sure, shotguns are better but bullets are bullets and hurt no matter what. The problem with LMG is that it isn't doing enough damage before you die. So, use pistol. It does twice the damage and if you aim you can dig a hole into the fade in a few seconds. After that, your fully loaded LMG doesn't look too bad, either. This is best when you have at least one friend, but solo I've made fades buzz off as vanilla marine. They'll come back, but you'll reload.

Another thing, people don't get that blocking is you are supposed to die. Some people in the way duck or run from a fade or don't even shoot. Blocking is a way of saying "My Chevet can ruin your Ferarri and I ain't got insurance"; even if you die it's a good deal. Even if you block a fade just to scare him by getting down to 75 or something, shake him up. Your spawn is free, the Fade's will cost around 50.

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Card AKA Karrd

Fenix, three things that you might want to make new topics for:

1) we're getting sidetracked here, we aren't trying to analyze the fade, we can do that in another topic. The tactical and strategic use of speed is something that neither of us should be discussing in this thread. I should never have replied to it.

2) I'm not trying to say that guns aren't a useful anti-fade strategy, but there just isn't any point in discussing them. They help you kill fades, simple as that. End of discussion. Please nobody mention guns again.

3) Ignoring the fade is just like discussing guns. While I think it might be interesting to discuss just how much of an impact a fade can make if the commander ignores him, if we go beyond just saying that some people think it's possible to ignore fades, we'll lose sight of the goal of the topic.

This isn't a personal attack or anything on you, but if you think so, please PM me, instead of posting.


Now, a tactic mentioned so far but not discussed: fade hunting pack. In large games where you can spare the marines I consider this to be a great counter to a single fade, or occasionally two. (only use if you have reliable motion tracking, otherwise you'll just be ambushed) Dedicate a pair or trio of marines to hunting down and killing the fades. Equiped with shotguns and with at least 1 wielder, they stick around the other marines if you don't know where the fade is, but once a fade has been spotted they use MT to hunt down the fade, giving it top priority (meaning only if they run into a really tempting target, like a completely undefended RT, do they stop). Not only does this blunt the edge of the kharaa's best weapon, the hunting pack will probably do collateral damage along the way.

Similarly, a strategy you can keep in mind is to chase down a hit and run fade if it is wounded. Just a pair of marines with SMGs is enough to send most wounded fades running a long way, allowing the rest of the team to continue whatever they are up to. After the fade is dead, or has run far enough away, the marines can go about thier usual business.

Again, the list, which I hope will be alot longer soon:

Tactics-
-Blocking- The most common counter. When it works it works, but requirements of luck, teamwork, and good timing (not to mention suprise) make it unreliable.

-TF hive rush- if I understand this correctly, this means getting a TF and PG up at the hive, making it so hit and run attacks by the fade are ineffective, allowing you to concentrate on the hive. There's two big obvious flaws with this, it takes alot of res and it takes alot of time (relatively speaking).

-Fade hunting pack. Dedicate a few marines to anti-fade.

Strategys-
-Attempt to ignore/circumvent the fade- I don't really see how this could ever really work if the fade is competent, but becuase it comes from an experienced player, I'll consider it.

-Try to move your marines through areas the fade is at a disadvantage in.

-Chase a weakend fade to an extent. Don't chase him all the way across the map, but even getting him a little bit farthur away can help.

Tips-
-Bring a big gun-

-Use groups of mines-

-Use your pistol first, then switch to smg-

LazyEye

As others have stated best way to kill a fade is to block him, and have HMG or shottys when you do it. When marines are holding a room and no aliens are in it, go near the entrances/exits of the room and hide so aliens can not see you until they enter the room. When the fade blinks in, cover the door way while shooting at him.

The next best way to kill a fade is to cut him off. This can be done by using the minimap and voicecomm. If you see teammates fighting a fade and you are a few rooms farther down the map, run to the exit near where the fade will blink out from. When the fade runs because of low hp, nail him, this works best with shotty or HMG and can be done by 1 marine. Report where a fade is on the map and say where he is running too, always try to cut those fades off. This will also work vs those stupid bite lerks.

Another note: Actively kill alien res the entire game. Killing the same fade after he kills 10-15 marines then having to kill him again sucks.

LazyEye

TheFeniX

Fade hunting packs almost never work against competent fades. I laugh whenever I hear my commander say "three guys take these shotguns and go kill Lazyeye." Lazy will happily lead all those marines to their doom as would any other good fade.

3 shotguns? Bring to skulk buddies along and lead the rines right to them.

And while the fade keeps those shotguns busy, the gorges are building RTs, upgrades, and hives. And the skulks are eating your res nodes.

PS: I never ignore the fade. I might just attempt to piss him off rather than kill him.

PPS: I should add that the only reason Lazyeye would ever die to a turret was because I made him break himself against that TF because the rest of his team was being stupid. They did have that TF down to one bar. If he hadn't died then, or they had one more skulk: we would have lost cargo and probably the game.

My gamble that his team wouldn't suicide rush cargo paid off though.

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attrition

You can go kill the egg at about 5:30...

You can ambush him.... just like a skulk would ambush a stronger foe...

You can solo him... (get a lvl 1 sg, have armor 1, a pack of mines) Lay all four mines close together behind where you are going to stand... He will knock you back over the mines an detonate them... from there 2 lvl1 sg blasts should kill.

The above works awesome but coms are way to stingy when it comes to mines...

Noob fades you can solo sometimes with marine bhoping (catpack) or even playing TORO with him... jumping back and forth over a railing.

Good fades... have someone ninja into the hive with a sg/gl ... when you see him move toward some marines gl/sg his chambers... instantly having no chambers at the right moment will kill any fade...

Never hand out anything better than a sg without a welder... Marines with no armor are just a joke to focus fades...

Try and close a door/elevator to trap his exit or squish him. (I hate it when coms bacon to a fade on that map with bio vent furnace hives, without closing the doors first.)

Card AKA Karrd

(sorry for disappearing for awhile..)

I was hoping to maybe try to come up with something new, or point out a less commonly used strategy. That was sort of the goal of this topic. I was hoping we could continue this discussion along those lines.

I'll have to give the 4 mine solo a try some time. I don't think I've actually seen that used.

Fade hunting party- again, this is only for when you have a large game going, so having 3 people wondering around won't be so harmful to the team. And it isn't like the 3 people are just going to ignore everything else, they'll still help out if they're in the right spot at the right time. And while this is happening the rest of the marine team is still working. So, if the fade stops to kill the hunting pack (something not easy if the marines are competent, and just plain hard if they're good) then the fade won't be able to assist his team, or counter the other marines. If the fade just tries to ignore the hunting pack, he'll probably get killed soon by a simple ambush. That's at least the way I see it. The goal is to kill or neutrilize the fade, and with a good hunting pack, both will eventually happen.

((I have school occupying alot of my time right now, so I'm not going to be posting as often as I was before. For a little while at least.))