Re: Why sometimes not to hit the hive in a Rush

**Wyzcrak** · 07-07-2006, 03:39 PM

I'm sure we could go back and forth all day long, but these are all just recommendations for the guy in the chair. His having announced what to target is not when the guys on the ground should start that decision-making process.

**Irish Pirate** · 07-08-2006, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by Tours

Unless the aliens have no fade, rushing into a hive on foot to kill the chambers will probably not be successfull.

For chamber killing, I find walking into the hive in early game alarmingly successfull to remove a chamber.

1-2 marines can sometimes walk in unapposed. Try to pay attention if aliens have been pressing on marine base/node between base and hive, if the answer is no you may not have to kill any aliens in your journey.

Two lmg clips and a little knifing or pistol action (if you want to leave yourself without any bullets left) will take out a chamber (cept DCs) Skulks that spawn will not be expecting you. Aliens will be too far away to respond if you kill the chamber straight away. If you have to people you can probably clear all the chambers and kill a good number of skulks, maybe even the RT before they get you.

Killing an early chamber not only hurts the aliens by ten res per chamber (that stings early game) but makes thier team have to function with less upgrade power until it's replaced, and that takes some time on thier part

It will be replaced before any hive rush, but I think it's worth mentioning here in the scheme of going into the hive and killing things other than the hive.

If a couple marines could find a way to regularly get into the alien hive and take out the node, aliens would have to considerably rethink thier defence strategy.

Rts have 2500 hp I believe, that makes it 5 level 0 lmg clips plus whatever it regenerates. Level 1 damage should remove the need to do anything extra after the 5 clips.

One shotgun will greatly decrease the time it takes to take out that node (chambers too). If that early investment of 10 res takes down the hive RT I think you came out ahead. I would not send one person there alone with a shotgun though and more than two people will probably draw attention from the aliens.

**Kerostasis** · 07-08-2006, 12:20 AM

Taking down the Hive RT is all well and good, but you have to ask yourself, "Why am I hitting this RT instead of another one thats probably less well defended?"

If the aliens are down to only 1 RT left of course, then thats the only one you can hit. Some hives (ns_lost Cargo, ns_caged Generator and Sewer come to mind) have RTs that are unusually easy to kill, so that makes some sense.

But aside from that, I can only imagine you're usually going to have a better shot of attacking some other node that you might actually be able to capture, instead of just suiciding to take down something that will immediately be replaced. (If the aliens can't manage to recap the RT in their own hive, something is very wrong.)

**Irish Pirate** · 07-08-2006, 09:11 AM

There is something to be said for attacking on multiple fronts. If two marines can hit a hive node and actually take it down almost all the aliens on the map will be headed for the hive so they don't lose anything else, even though the marines don't have to feel obligated to stay.

The hive is a much more high profile target, the words "shotty rush" will probably be mistakenly used if there are two marines and one has a shotgun.

The rest of the team will have more than enough of a chance to take out whatever else they want while the aliens are responding to the node crisis, the only question is if you will take down the node before being overwhelmed.

Not to mention, early in the game they probably only have 3 nodes. If you can walk directly to any of these, you should kill it. I think it is likely you will be able to walk to the hive node without trouble, and what resisting they do will be after you make the first shot.

If the marines succeed, there is no reason for them to leave and not spawn camp for a while. If you can take out the node and the chambers (wishful thinking, but if the marines are good enough they could probably pull it off) then spawn camping unil they kill you is probably what you are in for. By bringing the battle to the hive, you are removing the battle from the rest of the map and giving the aliens something to deal with.

**Tours** · 07-08-2006, 02:00 PM

The early lerk would easily destroy this hive distraction before the marines even reached the hive.

**Irish Pirate** · 07-08-2006, 10:29 PM

Early lerk wont happen with node pressure :x

At any rate, I don't want to distract from the actual proven effectiveness of going in to the hive to kill chambers early game. This works often, and works well. One marine can kill one chamber before aliens have a good chance at reacting, and can potentially take out more if the spawn camping goes well for him/her.

**Tours** · 07-09-2006, 01:56 AM

What do you mean the early lerk wont happen?

**Irish Pirate** · 07-09-2006, 03:14 PM

Lets take 8 players on an alien team.

2 drop nodes
1 saves for hive
1 saves for fade
2 drop at least one chamber

That leaves two aliens with the potential to go early lerk.

My logic, kill two nodes or one node and two chambers and either those players will be forced to drop nodes/chambers themselves, or the res flow will be to little for an effective early lerk. Kill chambers and the lerk will be much easier to hit and therefore kill.

Besides, it's harder to defend a structure. If marines have shotguns the lerk will have to keep a distance and gas. As long as the marines reload before reaching an empty clip and recive meds the lerk should not stop a good team from killing a node.

Also, consider the value of keeping the early lerk in the hive while the rest of the marine team does other things.

**Tours** · 07-09-2006, 05:04 PM

An early lerk and a few skulks will outclass a squad of 3 marines with one shotgun amoung them. For every extra marine you will need .5 of an early lerk to contain them. You will not be able to get out and kill an RT AND chambers before the early lerk shows up. Hence the name EARLY lerk. The point of having an early lerk is to stop that kind of thing from happening. Early lerks dont need a res flow to be effective, just upgrades. If you do rush the hive early to kill the chambers there will probably be none there as the chamber gorge is building an MC in a vent somewhere asking its team if it is safe to movement back. The only way i see an early lerk deviating from its original job is if the marines manage to kill all of the alien nodes in the first minute of the game. If the aliens are organized, "ninjaing" a chamber becomes nearly impossible. A strong alien strat will only put one MC in a hive, and yes a strong marine strat would keep the aliens busy in the hive or wherever. The marines will probably only be able to kill one alien node before the early lerk shows up.

**TheAdj`** · 07-09-2006, 08:42 PM

Early lerks will happen no matter if you ran and killed every node they had, it's more important than just about anything else if that player is actually good at lerk. It will slow marines down quite a bit compared to ano extra RT or other structure. For comparison, I usually lerk in <2 minutes on any given server if I'm early lerking. Good luck killing all those nodes that fast.

**Irish Pirate** · 07-09-2006, 10:03 PM

Thats why I said two nodes or one node and two chambers. The team moving in on the hive only has to destroy one node or two chambers. The rest of the team should be able to handle killing one node.

I would gladly take an early lerk to deal with in exchange for severly hurting the alien team for a good portion of the game.

If the player has already gone lerk by the time you kill two chambers and one node or two nodes then the alien team is set back by a long shot either with thier ability to get a hive, a fade, or resflow and upgrades.

Even if the lerk gets out before you hit the hive room you should still be able to kill some chambers. There are almost always two chambers INSIDE the main hive with no more than one of them hidden.

In no way do the marines in the hive have to kill all three structures.

**Tours** · 07-11-2006, 04:16 AM

There probably wont be two chambers in the hive pre-early lerk.

With all of this preasure, who is going to cap nodes? Half of your team is hitting hive location 1 while the other half is hitting hive location 2 (where the RT is). Early game the marines must make the best attemp at creating a good balance between making a strong marine economy and crippling the alien economy, to the best of their ability.

**Irish Pirate** · 07-11-2006, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Tours

There probably wont be two chambers in the hive pre-early lerk.

With all of this preasure, who is going to cap nodes? Half of your team is hitting hive location 1 while the other half is hitting hive location 2 (where the RT is). Early game the marines must make the best attemp at creating a good balance between making a strong marine economy and crippling the alien economy, to the best of their ability.

Thats why you assess the situation and determine the best course of action for your given scenario.

If you find yourself in the hive your objective is to destroy either two MCs or a node. Two MCs pop out close to the same time as an early lerk. MCs are easier to kill than RTs. Thus, while it gets harder to maintain your position in the hive because of the lerk, you have an easier target than the RT. If there are no MCs, there is probably no lerk. You will have an easier time defending the position, and should go for the RT.

It doesn't take more than 1-2 marines to cap nodes, especially if the aliens are too busy defending thier rts.

I think you will find, and this is what it always comes down to, the team with the better players has a tendancy to win the mini skirmishes around the map. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'm almost waiting for you to say "what if they have a really good lerk?" "What if one or two aliens escape and kill all the marines capping nodes?"

You also seem to be taking the position that there is always an early lerk, which is incorrect.

I have made an observation that the hive is almost always poorly defended earlier on in the game.

I have given a suggestion on how marines may use that to thier advantage.

I'm not telling you, tours, that you ever have to do it.

Furthermore, nothing I ever said implied that there will be chambers in the hive before an early lerk. You may want to reread some posts.

**Tours** · 07-11-2006, 03:37 PM

I guess wyz is right, we could probably argue for pages and still not change te other's opinion.

**Irish Pirate** · 07-12-2006, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by Tours

I guess wyz is right, we could probably argue for pages and still not change te other's opinion.

I find arguing is much less about changing the person's opinion you are arguing with and much more about changing the opinion of people who read about the argument. People who are arguing about stuff are often too stubborn and set in thier ways to get anywhere. It's from the expression of both sides that others form thier own opinions. There is often truth in both sides.

Don't be worried if you can't convince me of something, I'm an obstinate fool.

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