Originally Posted by Snail88

wow...who really needs guns anyways?

The last time I knew, living in this country wasn't about what a person NEEDS. If you want to start limiting ownership of property to what a person needs, many of us are going to have to give up most of our belongings.





Judging from the picture, I'd say MAXx has got some sort of AR-15 copy (Rock River Arms?) with a collapsible stock and a 16" barrel. Whatever the brand, it's a semi-automatic rifle that looks somewhat like an M4, but it's not an M4.

The other ones I'm guessing are (left to right):

A Smith & Wesson Model 29, a Ruger Single Six, a Springfield Armory "G.I. .45 Mil-Spec", a Springfield Armory Micro Compact with Hogue Grip, and a full-sized Glock of some caliber (17 if 9mm, 22 if .40 cal, etc.). Did I get any right, MAXx?

Originally Posted by Acreo Aeneas

Well, that clip doesn't look like a civilian 20 round mag. It looks like a standard issue 30 round mag.

Some states in the Union allow no more than a maximum of 20 rounds in a detachable magazine (Maryland, for example). Other states allow a maximum detachable magazine capacity of 30 rounds (Ohio, for example), and still other states have no restriction on detachable magazine capacity. Know the laws of your state when buying detachable magazines.

Originally Posted by Acreo Aeneas

As for automatic, I assume it is and I also assume he was given it by his dad, who might have been allowed to keep his "automatic" M4 after leaving/retiring from service.

For those who aren't aware of the laws concerning civilian ownership of automatic weapons in the United States, I enourage you to educate yourselves. Maybe I can help.

Start by reading this. It includes information from the National Firearms Act of 1934, the Gun Control Act of 1968 (which amended the National Firearms Act), and the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986. These three laws are the meat and potatoes of what you should know about civilian ownership of automatic weapons in the United States.

I'll summarize them below. The bold emphasis indicates the really important parts.

Owning an Automatic Weapon in the United States
It is illegal for anyone to have possession of an automatic weapon that is not registered to them in the National Firearms Act (NFA) Registry. A civilian otherwise able to own a gun under federal law can receive and own an automatic weapon (state and local law permitting) on a Form 4, "Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm". Civilians may only purchase an automatic weapon from a dealer or individual within their own state. If the weapon is located out of state it must be transferred to a Class 3 dealer within the state, before transfer to the civilian. The transfer involves paying a transfer tax, which is $200 for each automatic weapon.

In addition to paying the transfer tax, a civilian must also get one of several specified local chief law enforcement officers to sign the Form 4, submit his fingerprints in duplicate, and attach photos of himself to the form. Initial transfers to civilians tend to take at least four months, although subsequent transfers can be quicker.

Further, in 1986, as part of the Firearm Owners' Protection Act (FOPA), Congress prohibited civilians from owning automatic weapons, but made it an affirmative defense that the automatic weapon was registered before the act took effect (which was 5/19/86). See 18 U.S.C. sec. 922(o) for the law. Thus as a civilian you can only legally own an automatic weapon that was registered in the NFA Registry before 5/19/86. Any registered after that date can only be owned by law enforcement and government entities.

On top of the FOPA restrictions, any automatic weapon imported into the U.S. after the Gun Control Act took effect (October of 1968) cannot be transferred to a civilian. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 5844.


Transporting an Automatic Weapon in the United States
In terms of moving an automatic weapon around, the following applies.

If you are transporting the weapon within your state, it is wise that you keep a photocopy of the registration paperwork with the gun. Some states require this, as some state laws ban all or some automatic weapons, and exempt from the ban only those possessed in compliance with federal law. In such states you need the federal paperwork to be legal under state law.

To move an automatic weapon between states, you must get permission from BATFE to move it (or to temporarily export it) before doing so. This includes taking it somewhere to shoot it, or when permanently changing residences.


Penalties for Violations
A conviction for a violation of the NFA will result in a felony conviction, punishable by up to ten years in prison, and/or a $10,000 fine. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 5871. The U.S. Sentencing Guidelines ordinarily require prison time, even for a first offense with no prior criminal record, however various mitigating and aggravating factors can raise or lower the possible sentence range for a first offense.


So what all this is saying is that as a civilian, you can only own an automatic weapon if:

- it was made in the U.S. before May of 1986 or imported into the U.S. before October of 1968
- your local and state laws allow it
- your local law enforcement approves of it
- you jump through all the required legal hoops with the BATFE

Further, since any automatic weapon that can be legally owned by a civilian must be registered in the federal NFA Registry, this means that there is a fixed number of automatic weapons in the United States legally ownable by civilians. Such a situation has created a fixed supply for these automatic weapons, even though the demand has continued to increase over the years. As a result, prices for legally ownable automatic weapons have skyrocketed. A Thompson Submachine Gun in good shape will currently cost you around $17,000 from someone who owns a legally registered example (if they're willing to part with it).



I hope all this helps to educate some folks. Firearms ownership is a responsibility, and one that many young people in this country handle quite well. In fact, each year thousands of kids of junior-high and high-school ages compete in High Power Service Rifle matches where they shoot accurized AR-15s at paper targets. And each year, those same kids manage not to shoot themselves, their friends, their relatives, or people in their communities. This is because they're knowledgable and responsible when it comes to firearms and firearms safety. There's nothing scary about it.