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  1. #1
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    johnflenaly's Avatar

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    Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Just finished up the first one. Want to thank everyone who participated. We picked up some 4 or 5 new people tonight. Special thanks to the SLs and the transport squad. If you have any commits or suggestions for the next one leave them here please.
    Last edited by johnflenaly; 02-16-2013 at 12:38 AM.
    You can't have any sacred cows if you want to make a really great game. Unless you're making a game about killing sacred cows. That's okay. Matt Higby

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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Good job tonight. I came late but still got to see a good deal of action.

    Was this event timed knowing we would have such a NC push, or did it just work out that way?
    |TG-XV|Viking

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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Think it just worked out that way.

    From a transport view: We moved like lightning, which made me very happy. We got to points, killed the enemy, took the points, and moved on to the next objective. This kept people engaged the whole time throughout the... what.. 4-5 hrs we played? I think our participation was a strong part, or the catalyst that got the NC rolling. We started out almost warp-gated by VS/TR and succesfully pushed them off from there.

    My only suggestion, was we assign a squad to a Sunderer crew. This way I know when I've got everyone, and the squad itself knows to look for that crew specifically. This also might in the future give flexibility to splitting off specific squads to go off and take an adjacent objective if so desired. It ended up not being a huge deal, but we did have some episodes waiting around for pubbies to get in and get the whole team going.

    Likewise, we didn't encounter a lot of air as we were going in our 3-4 sunderer convoy, but if we had, it would have been a bad day. I thought about this later, but it might be a good idea for the squad leaders to figure out who has burster maxes. Once they know, if the convoy gets attacked, the convoy stops, we deploy, those individuals pick up the kits and go to work defending. We now have support in numbers, infantry is safe inside the vehicles, while the max's handle the air threat. Once its dealt, we load up, and press on.

    Otherwise, it was really exciting and fun to get so many of us on together.


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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Thank you all very much, had lots of fun!

    The coordination though still needs a lot of improvement... let me examine this:

    Too much platoon-coms make squad-play very difficult or even impossible. In our squad there wasn't really much communication to support coordination on the squadMEMBER side partly because there was too much traffic from outside. This – I assume – was not only the case for our squad, as this happens more or less always when playing as a platoon.
    I think something must be done there.
    I personally find the squadplay always becomes very poor as soon as the team reaches platoon size, as platoon-comms then engage; and bad comms causes bad coordination. As there is no low-level coordination platoons tend to become sort of mini-zergs, or act in a zergy way.
    This is a problem that spawns mostly in the bottom tiers of the team (the individual players – not considering their role in the hierarchy of the team) and cannot be solved the top-down way. This problem must be solved bottom-up.
    How?
    Don't let it emerge in the first place! Proper comms are a fragile animal that needs a suitable environment. This environment in most for the cases cannot be enforced from above, but must arise from the bottom. The ways to build up an environment that makes good comms possible are manifold. But in the end it always comes down to not letting the chaos of the game environment spread into and infest the comms. A possible way to do that is to not get into the chaotic game environment in the first place. This sounds easy on paper, but is of course hard to realize in practice (if you don't want to ghost cap all day long...^^). Another way might be very, very disciplined but agile and high frequency*1 low level (low in the hierarchy) coordination that withstands the chaotic environment and allows you to directly go into those chaotic environments because your team does not collapse under the pressure of the chaos, because it has good coordination (which in this case more or less equals good, organized comms). And when you withstand the chaos it does not spread over into your comms (hypothesis...).
    Regardless of what ever other ways there might be to solve this problem, it is a problem that we need to work on and find a way that suits us to work around or solve it.


    --------------------------------------------
    *1: What I mean with high frequency coordination is this: The chaotic and dynamic environment you often find yourself in requires a type of coordination that contestant adapts to the ever changing circumstances. The squad constantly updates it own situational awareness and works in a very tight fashion. Squadleaders do their best to not let “what are we doing?!”-moments arise.

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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Serjikal View Post
    My only suggestion, was we assign a squad to a Sunderer crew. This way I know when I've got everyone, and the squad itself knows to look for that crew specifically. This also might in the future give flexibility to splitting off specific squads to go off and take an adjacent objective if so desired. It ended up not being a huge deal, but we did have some episodes waiting around for pubbies to get in and get the whole team going.
    Good idea

    Evilhardt points out some areas of improvement that I have noticed as well.
    |TG-XV|Viking

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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    From tonight . . .


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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Thanks to John for organising and executing the event so well. Sorry I couldn't stick around longer, way past my Euro bed-time.

    I was transport squad member for about an hour. While it was a quiet fight for Serj and I, I can totally see the value in dedicated transportation. We were beating galaxy squads to their objectives just because we were always ready to go.

    The time saved from trying to source transportation (asking for volunteers, spawning, getting off the pad, moving towards squad, getting everyone loaded up) is huge.

    We also benefit from full strength, dedicated infantry squads that aren't gunning or guarding a sundy. PLs and SLs will know that if a squad has 10 people, 10 people should be on an objective, and not have to account for drivers and gunners.

    I also forget how good the default sundy cannon is; A combination of anti-infantry and anti-air work well.

    While transport squads can be pretty dull, cycling squad members around occasionally would help spread the "burden".

    Mixing up the squads between transports is almost unavoidable, even when you've got an assigned transport. I think looking for a specific transport takes more time than getting into just ANY platoon transport and rallying with your squad at the destination.

    TL;DR: Dedicated transport squads are a straight-forward OP with a huge mobility boost, clear responsibilities, but with a slight cost in squad cohesion (given no other arrangements).

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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Great night!! Had fun and we sowed the seeds of TG in a couple of new members. <--- That sounds a bit dirty but it was not intended :-)

    My list of things to work on.

    -comms
    -comms
    -comms

    I had a hard time giving my squad members orders when I received them from the Platoon leader because TG people were discussing/questioning those orders right after they were given.
    This needs to stop!! If you have a question or want to discuss the PL orders do it in TS not in game. It sounds very unprofessional!! If you want to PL then step up and PL.
    Some of this is my fault as a squad leader. I didn't say something right away like I should have.

    Anyway I had a great time last night and I think as we progress it will only get better.

    Thanks to all who made it a good night.

    Todd
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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Toddshooter View Post
    I had a hard time giving my squad members orders when I received them from the Platoon leader because TG people were discussing/questioning those orders right after they were given.
    This needs to stop!! If you have a question or want to discuss the PL orders do it in TS not in game. It sounds very unprofessional!! If you want to PL then step up and PL.
    This shouldn't be happening...at all. Come on guys... (This can be extremely frustrating for a squad leader or platoon leader and can decrease the enjoyment of the game for all involved).

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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumQrack View Post
    This shouldn't be happening...at all. Come on guys... (This can be extremely frustrating for a squad leader or platoon leader and can decrease the enjoyment of the game for all involved).
    Not saying Todd you did/didn't do this, but its the SL's job to shut that person down and get them back in line. "Hey Platoon chat is for SLs/PL's only unless a dire situation arises".

    Now, this jogged my memory - we did have people talking over PL Chat a lot yesterday, but more often than not, it was when we were just cruising around endless and open space. I don't feel this is a huge issue. When its just traveling, idle chat lets the stress out from the last fight, and allows people to recage their minds for the next. Once we start getting closer to that objective, something like "Game Face, or War Mode ON" can be said, and we all go back to being in the zone. Otherwise, we just look like a bunch of goons that can't have fun, in the midst of a low threat scenario.


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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Something I would like to pipe in about, squad transports. While I like having the transports coordinating the way they did, it was like herding cats to get my squad reorganized after deploying on site. Specially if one transport is going the opposite way from the squads objective. Quartz ridge is a perfect example. Delta squad needed to go up the left side of the left tower, yet half the squad got out of the transport that was parked to the far right. I never did have my full squad on A and the shield generator.

    I want to give some props though to the 5 members of Delta that formed up on me when we flanked the enemies position at Storage. We were a small unit, but we definitely provided confusion in the enemy. There were more than a few enemy that couldn't decide which way to shoot, that I personally gunned down.

    I also would like to say, the Medics of the Platoon did a great job on keeping people in the fight. Well done guys.




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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Male View Post
    From tonight . . .

    that soundtrack was a good pick.


    These Things We Do... That Other's May Live

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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Xen View Post
    Something I would like to pipe in about, squad transports. While I like having the transports coordinating the way they did, it was like herding cats to get my squad reorganized after deploying on site. Specially if one transport is going the opposite way from the squads objective. Quartz ridge is a perfect example. Delta squad needed to go up the left side of the left tower, yet half the squad got out of the transport that was parked to the far right. I never did have my full squad on A and the shield generator.

    I want to give some props though to the 5 members of Delta that formed up on me when we flanked the enemies position at Storage. We were a small unit, but we definitely provided confusion in the enemy. There were more than a few enemy that couldn't decide which way to shoot, that I personally gunned down.

    I also would like to say, the Medics of the Platoon did a great job on keeping people in the fight. Well done guys.
    Just a heads up on what I was thinking at the time, and what I was trying to accomplish with a dedicated transport squad.

    1. Defense of said Transports. One of my biggest issues with the game right now is the kamikaze Light Assaults/Engineers that can one shot Sunderers. The counter argument to this has always been to protect your Sunderers. Most of the time even with TG this is not done. I attempted this in one of two ways. First only one Sunderer was deployed at a time. The others were kept moving, making them almost an impossible target for said tactics, as well as they could provide limited firesupport. The second was even the deployed Sunderer was defended by its own crew either using the guns or on foot. For the most part this work as enteded, and we really only started losing Sunderers when I had to stray from this tactic for other in game reasons.

    2. Speed of movement. I can go into detail, but this part was relatively successful for reasons serjikal said in his post.


    Points of failure:

    Like xen said the squads got way to spread out. I didn't for see this but its easily fixed by giving marked drop off points for the Platoon as a whole, much like we had marked pick up points. Instead what happened is we generally ended up unloading troops in a fairly wide arc around the objective.

    Non - Dedicated transports. There is no easy fix for this. You basically have three options and have different pros and cons for each. If we go my way, like last night You have 1 dedicated driver and 2 Dedicated gunners per transport. That leaves you 9 spots in the Sunderer for Infantry. Now with 4 Sunderers, that leaves you 36 spots in total for Infantry which equals 3 full infantry squads, but the con being they are spread across 4 Sunderers. Option 2. Dedicated squad Sunderer with a Dedicated crew. This works much like last night, but the Dedicated crew comes out of the squad assigned to it, leaving your Infantry squad 9 members on foot instead of 12. Option 3, is the way we seem to normally run. Dedicated squad Sunderer, with a temporary Driver. This leaves you 12 infantry but then your deployed Sunderer is left defenseless. There are minor variations of each but I think we need to test and see different ways of doing things.
    You can't have any sacred cows if you want to make a really great game. Unless you're making a game about killing sacred cows. That's okay. Matt Higby

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  27. #14
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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    You could set the max count of players per squad to 9 and open a new platoon when you reach 4*9 players (3*3 for 3 sundies @ 3 players per crew + 3*9 for 3 squads @ 9 players per squad).
    Or you could assign the leftover players of the 12 player squads to certain other tasks (scouting and aircover for example).

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    Re: Friday Night Fights Discussion

    To remain in tact a Sunderer must be deployed far from enemy forces, around 300 to 500 meters, much more if lots of enemy air and little friendly anti-air.

    A Sunderer left unattended is a destroyed Sunderer.

    I despair when an SL or PL orders a Sunderer driver to leave the vehicle. It should be understood that the security of the vehicle is closely tied to the security of the team.

    I also find that SLs far too often ask/order a Sunderer driver to move the vehicle into the middle of a hot zone (usually very close to a A/B/C capture point). More often than not this results in the imminent loss of the vehicle.

    Use two Sunderers, the disposable attack Sunderer, which will deploy in close proximity and will very likely be lost, and the reserve or 'Command' Sunderer that remains far back and ensures that a spawn point is maintained. Keep in mind that more spawn points in an area will draw in more allied forces.

    If you cannot control an area with a Sunderer deployed a few hundred meters away it is unlikely that you will be able to do so with the Sunderer right on top of the enemy. Indeed, this tends to lead to resources wasted in defending a heavily attacked Sunderer in close proximity to the enemy. A too-close Sunderer becomes a distraction.

    I realize that there comes a time when vehicles must be abandoned, a platoon or squad must regroup to the Warp gate, and such. But far too often Sunderers are treated as disposable.

    We will do better to make the enemy do the dying, make the enemy lose their assets.

    Keep in mind these are very general comments arrived at from playing with numerous outfits under many SLs. I have no one in particular in mind herein.

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