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Discussion: PR:BF2 / PR:BF2 - Tactics & SOPs - Commander Tactics - Originally Posted by Deathdealer247
Unfortunately, I was only able to kill 90 with the Arty
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07-26-2005, 02:08 AM #16
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Re: Congrats And Thanks For A 411-0 Win On Oman
Yes, but we really don't need detailed reports during the round, compounded with tons of swearing on top of that. Besides, playing for kills shouldn't be a goal here.
Originally Posted by Deathdealer247
A critique of your zone play from tonight, if I may.
It's an interesting tactic, and I did give it a go even though I disagreed with it completely. It frustrated me, and frustrated my squad to no end. Here's what problems I see:
1. You assigned several squads to a zone and told them to cover that zone. Problem is that there is no inter-squad communication, so what ended up happening is clustering or complete roaming that left important flags undefended (giving up armor spawns isn't a good idea in my book), or one big arty target for the enemy.
2. You said we had free roam to cover the area as we saw fit, but then gave (at least to my squad) specific orders to move places.
3. Rules of engagement were set as "if they attack you, run away to a less defended enemy flag". This perhaps was the most frustrating of all. My squad ended up top squad of the Oilfields map, but I didn't feel like I did anything. Myself and my squad felt no sense of accomplishment due to the fact that we were constantly giving up real estate that we conquered 5 seconds ago. Also, my squad was wiped out more in transit between flags than when we were holding them.
4. Squads assigned tasks outside their zones. My squad was assigned the south half of the map, but was constantly receiving orders to the north. It was as if you weren't even following your own game plan.
It really felt as if I was playing whack a mole tonight. My squad actually had one of their more successful nights as far as captures and kills, but I don't think many of us were having fun (my dukes of hazard driving aside). I realize that your battle plans differ drastically from mine, and that's okay. It just didn't feel like I was playing Battlefield tonight, kinda more like car racing game or something. Given the chance to follow the same plan again, I would just take a vacation for the night. Sorry.
[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo
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07-26-2005, 09:55 AM #17
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Re: Commander Tactics
No they dont have to own a flag to respawn, but if its the only one they have... well that where they will be.
To answer the other SmokingTarpan:
The more you kill on a base, the more demoralized the enemy is, making our defense far easier. And believe it or not, my swearing is some what more tamed compare to real life and prior experience, but Ill take note and work on it some more.
I didnt ask you to leave as soon as it appears it was under attack. I looked at the scan, and evaluated your chances. If the attackers were far numerous and better armed, then its better to save urselves for another day. If it were other maps, I would ask you to find cover nearby and await reinforcement to counter attack, but on Oman, there are bases very near by (on the beach), so it was better to grab another base and set up a 360 behind some walls.
Squads were assigned taskings outside thier zone because your peers were not following orders and failed to halt and assault into the hotel (the USMC's last landside base). Its also neccessary to bring more than one squad since the enemy was dumb enough to atack in mass. When the enemy are on the defense, he will spawn all force at the flag, and a 6 man team will not be able to hold it.
[quote]4. Squads assigned tasks outside their zones. My squad was assigned the south half of the map, but was constantly receiving orders to the north. It was as if you weren't even following your own game plan.[\quoute]
The rules were "templates" or "Guidelines". And as with all battle plan, be flexible and adaptive, that is the #1 rule. The sectors were asssigned so that you would act without my micromanagement, but of course you cant see if the base were or were not heavily defended, I can.
Yes it feels like a game of wack a mole, but imagine how the enemy feels. Often, he will take a base, spawn, only to be rained on by arty and air strikes. He then tries to run to another, only to have the base behind taken from behind him.
Yes its wierd, but thats fighting smart. "If all planning were done right, no one would earn medals!"
From everything Im taught (professional military training), I detest static defense and favors defense in depth. If you are interested, I think you should read "The Battlebook", and that would give you a general idea.Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.
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07-26-2005, 10:26 AM #18
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Re: Commander Tactics
There were several times that my flag came under attack by 3-4 foot soldiers, and you ordered me out of the flag (I'm focussing on the Oilfields map, Oman isn't really worth talking about). Also, almost every time you ordered my squad out of a flag, we were wiped out because we had nowhere to take cover. It's hard to run from a tank or two when all I have to hide behind is a low ridge. Had we been able to hole up and actually set up a defense, would could have easily driven off most of the attacks that killed us last night. In the past, I've fended off attacks that were far worse than most of those that wiped my squad last night (my specialty is defense). Better armed and more numerous doesn't make you the automatic victor. Originally Posted by Deathdealer247
I understand you like moving fast, keeping the enemy confused. That's good, they deserve to be going "wtf?" most of the time. However, I don't see the point in giving up easily defended flags or flags with lots of armor spawns. Over the night, I've thought of some tweaks that you might like to try. They stay in line with your major game plan, but incorporate a little of my own strategy.
1. Smaller, tighter zones. It's easy for one squad to patrol two nearby flags, I do it routinely. It's hell for three squads to patrol four flags that are spread from one side of the map to the other. Add the difficulty of no inter-squad comms, and you suddenly have all your squads in a zone racing toward a single flag on the attack while leaving numerous flags open in the back.
2. Static defense on two or three "main" flags. Generally these would be spawns that have lots of armor at their location, but they could also be flags that are easily defended. Sometimes flags are set up so that one squad can easily fend off 2-3 other squads simultaneously, and more damage is done by holding off wave after wave of futile attack than by giving up the position. This also provides a secure set of spawn points for any groups that got wiped out and lost their zone.
3. One or two small Fast Attack/Quick Response squads. These would be 3-4 man squads that utilized jeeps/buggies/humvees to cause chaos by hopping from flag to flag. Due to the fact that they're rapid, they could also be called in for quick reinforcements if needed.
I think that these tweaks would improve your overall strategy greatly.
[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo
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07-26-2005, 10:36 AM #19
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Re: Commander Tactics
INDEED!
Its very close to my original plan, which is the top of the thread.
Read the part regarding primary responsibility.Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.
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07-26-2005, 10:50 AM #20
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Re: Commander Tactics
No no, I understand the original plan. But my experiences last night weren't anywhere near the original plan, I was basically just running around and abandoning one flag for another. Whether that was because other squads weren't doing their part, or because you abandoned the primary strategy, I dunno.
[squadl]
"I am the prettiest african-american, vietnamese..cong..person." -SugarNCamo
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07-26-2005, 11:00 AM #21
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Re: Commander Tactics
A combination of the 2.
Its not that squads were not heeding the orders, but rather they did not understand the overall commanders intent.
I strongly believe Oman was better executed, up until you guys failed to abandon the Eastern coastal flag.Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.
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07-26-2005, 11:02 AM #22
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Re: Commander Tactics
Agreed. I've never been fragged so much as I was last night on Daqing. IMHO, we'd have been much better off setting mines on our perimeter and hunkering down inside some cover and defending when assaulted rather than picking up and going off on foot into open fields only to be run down by tanks and picked off by choppers. Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan
Death, whether your tactics are successful or not, I gotta say it just ain't fun getting chewed up like that in the open. I'd much rather stay in cover and fight.
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07-26-2005, 11:06 AM #23
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Re: Commander Tactics
I was in Tarpan's squad and we were going from places to places. It was very fast paced. I was surprised that we won the map as well as our squad was the best squad.
I heard the concept of your plan and I found it interesting indeed. But I left Tarpan and his squad as a commander in the past in the middle of Oilfield which is constantly under attack from every direction and he would hold it throughout the round against waves and waves of attacks. As the time goes by I am sure you will get used to SL 's styles and their expertise.
I am just surprised how many complaints from other SL s you have brought on yourself after the game (see the other threads) yet Tarpan followed your orders to the teeth.
Also I am glad that we have one more commander who likes their job and ready to show us new strategies and experiment with them. Less games will be without commanders. I heard you cursed a bunch. Looking forward to working under you as a SL and I will see how that experience would be. Till then no comment on that.
Fun, fun and more fun. But do not be selfish. Provide some fun and you will receive some fun.
|TG| B | Spartan 12
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07-26-2005, 11:31 AM #24
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Re: Commander Tactics
I was under Tarpans command the previous map, on Karkand. Hes a good commander and communicates constantly with his SLs.
On Daqing, the enemy was not following the template. They were very spreadout and I was unable to lock them down. That being said, I think Daqing is a map where tactics MUST be altered. Daqing is one of the most moble map there is.
There is a vast network of avenues of approach, thus mobility is not the key. In hindsight, I understand your concerns. It stems from my lack of terrain analysis.
In the past, I have left the middle open as a trap, as it really does not provide much overhead cover. But this time, they didnt take the bait.
Our overall sucess owed very much to 3rd squads consistant effort in destroying enemy artillery. My main concern was that static defense was an invitation to enemy indirect. Also, understand that from my professinal understanding of cover and concealment, most structures in the game does not even qualify to stan up to shrapnel (so im scared everywhere)
Another map that is falls in this category is Mashtuur, where static deense is very necessary.
However, I places like Oman, Wetlands and Dragon Valley, there are substantial obstacle to impede enemy advance.
Thank you for all your criticism, as I see now that the tactics advertised at the first post is not universal to every map.Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.
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07-26-2005, 11:45 AM #25
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Re: Commander Tactics
I was commanding against DeathDealer last night on the oilfields map (after going commander-less for the first half of the round). No offense, but my side just was not getting it done. I would not conclude that specific tactics work but rather that the USMC was just a big clusterfvck.
You can read the "defending" thread but I saw Tarpan's squad on commander scan minutes before they attacked (east side of map attacking from east-side forest/hills every time). I called out their position to the TWO squads defending either point and those squads still lost the flag.
That is just not getting it done on our side.
I hate to sound so arrogant and negative but Deathdealer's arty came around 10 seconds after we would cap a point. You would think that people would learn after the 2nd time (or even the 4th or 5th time) to cap the point, set mines & expacks, and get the h3ll out of the way. But no. They just stood there and died like sheep draining their team of precious tickets. You owe your teammates more, people.
That is just not getting it done.
People say that there is a difference between "tactical" and "competitive." I would say that people who have played competitively have 100-times more situational awareness that people who have not. And they are 1000-times more goal oriented.
I had two squads who I explicitly told to bypass the 6 to 10 enemy destroying my arty and to take a flag that was undefended. Gave them an "attack this" command and told them over VOIP, "Bypass bypass bypass." Yet they get bogged down in our main trying to kill the spec-ops squad taking out my arty.
* I don't need arty
* I don't need UAV
* I don't need RADAR
* 6 to 10 people destroying my arty is a good thing because then we have a 6 to 10 person advantage OUT IN THE FIELD WHERE IT FRIGGEN MATTERS.
What I do need is for the squads to get to their objective and stop the ticket bleed. Situational awareness, people! I guarantee that if you hold flags, those spec-ops slugs thinking they are so cool and so covert will be forced to withdraw to defend the flags they just lost. Or their team will lose and lose and lose.
But no, I cannot get a 6-man squad with armor and AA to move and take an undefend after my air force laid a golden carpet for them with repeated strikes.
We lost by 16 tickets (31 to 14). Between the people getting fragged for, no offense, being stupid and hanging around in the open after taking a flag we could have won. Between the squad who would not stop the ticket bleed by following orders and taking a damn flag we could have won. Between the peopel still trying to take all of the flags instead of defending (no reason to lose more people in an assault) we could have won.
I can see why people don't want to command. No hard-nosed shooters to work with. No disciplined troops with situational awareness to work with.
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07-26-2005, 11:46 AM #26
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Re: Congrats And Thanks For A 411-0 Win On Oman
Not to take away from your amazing skillz, but that game on Oman was the result of incredible team imbalance and nothing more. Originally Posted by Deathdealer247
I made a fateful decision last night which I will never make again. One of my most despised maps loaded (Oman), and I saw that there were no squads which appeared organized on my team, so I went CO. 2 minutes later, I wondered why I did that, as I attempted to command 9 squads, 5 of which had 1 or 2 players.
There was one full squad which did well, and another partial squad which tried hard. I did my best to help out the rag tag team, but it is very hard on the good squads when they are always outnumbered 2-1.
Then someone decided to mutiny me, saying in the team chat: HIT YES, HE ISN'T DOING ANYTHING. I immediately stepped down so he could take control and show me how it is done. I was not surprised in the least when he didn't step up. I don't think anyone stepped up, and I switched to the MEC side so I could play with a squad and have a commander.
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07-26-2005, 11:47 AM #27
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Re: Commander Tactics
P.S. And yes, I specifically abandoned the middle because it drains so many tickets trying to hold. The USMC who took it were ramboing. Sigh.
P.P.S. The reason USMC got wasted on Gulf of Oman is that the squad leaders had 32MB of RAM and took 10 minutes to load into the map. For the first 3 minutes you played against 5 people waiting for their leader to spawn.
What happened to the 90 second countdown? If someone could code a "squad leader kicked if not active in 1 minute" rule the I would be happy.
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07-26-2005, 12:00 PM #28
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Re: Commander Tactics
Doesnt make sense.
How can the game be imbalanced? 32 Players on each team. SL failes to load then the next highest rank take over. If the Squads are small, then tell them to consolidate into other 1/2 size teams. In all fareness, you usualy end up wih the same team u played/commanded on the last map.
If you disagree with my stragtegies, then come up with your own, and discuss the metrits of either.
In the words of my old Company Commander (Graduate of SLOAN MBA program) "Dont offer criticism unless you have a great alternative!"Power may grow from the barrel of a gun, but control....... stems from the 1st and the 15th.
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07-26-2005, 12:04 PM #29
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Re: Commander Tactics
I remember that one. That was insane. We could not believe we pulled that flag under 2 squads. Tanks and APC s and eveything bunch of infantries. Honestly the whole squad was composed of some skilled players. Originally Posted by Ski-Racer
Fun, fun and more fun. But do not be selfish. Provide some fun and you will receive some fun.
|TG| B | Spartan 12
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07-26-2005, 01:13 PM #30
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Re: Commander Tactics
Read again. They took 10 minutes to load--not they didn't load. Or they go AFK and never press "Join Game." Either way, they are still squad leader and the rest of the squad is wondering what to do. I looked at the score screen after losing 2 flags quickly and saw that only 5 people were in-game and none were squad leaders. Originally Posted by Deathdealer247
I didn't criticize your tactics. I merely said don't read too much into last night success because the side you played against, sorry to be so blunt, was incompetent.
When a flag goes gray with 2 defending squads watching it, what else can you call it?
When 2 squads know that attackers are coming from their east and have a minute to prepare yet still lose their flag, what else can you call it?
When a squad gets pounded by arty 10 to 15 seconds after taking a flag--again and again, what else can you call it? I mean, that's like touching a stove, burning yourself, and then touching it again (4 more times). That's God's way of telling them to go play Sims Online.
When the same squad is leaderless because the SL goes AFK then that squad is going to get double-slaughtered. I would hesitate to declare any tactic validated going against competition at such a low level.
BTW, MBAs have been shown to be a waste of time, professionally.
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