Re: Commander Tactics

**SmokingTarpan** · 07-26-2005, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Deathdealer247

I was under Tarpans command the previous map, on Karkand. Hes a good commander and communicates constantly with his SLs.

Actually, I only CO'd 2 games, and they were in the late afternoon/early evening. The map before (Karkand) you CO'd on the Oilfields, I think it was [QT3]NotOneOfUs in charge. I was just a groundpounder for the late night Karkand, Oilfields and Oman.

Originally Posted by Ski-Racer

You can read the "defending" thread but I saw Tarpan's squad on commander scan minutes before they attacked (east side of map attacking from east-side forest/hills every time). I called out their position to the TWO squads defending either point and those squads still lost the flag.

That is just not getting it done on our side.

I agree with you, your team was rather... well, words can't even describe it. My squad on foot alone managed to capture the far northeast flag that was being defended by 2 tanks and a handful of infantry. And we only had 1 AT guy. I give major props to my squadmates last night, some of the most skilled players that I've had ever. But we should never have captured that flag, skilled players or not.

Originally Posted by Deathdealer247

How can the game be imbalanced? 32 Players on each team. SL failes to load then the next highest rank take over. If the Squads are small, then tell them to consolidate into other 1/2 size teams. In all fareness, you usualy end up wih the same team u played/commanded on the last map.

On Oman, the MEC had 3 of the 4 beach flags conquered in the first 30-45sec of the round. There were almost no US players in at that time, and the handful of MEC players that were in early grabbed vehicles and made it to the flags before the US even had a chance to spawn.

I could tell from about 5min into the game that it was just going to be a slaughter. Just watching the UAV scans showed me that the USMC were running around like chickens with their heads cut off. Add to that the fact that ickyp informs us of how poorly his team followed directions, and the victory becomes rather hollow.

You had some good quick response tactics when the US did take a flag or two, but really, it was a pushover. I wouldn't consider it a tactical victory any more than I consider it a tactical victory for a tank to roll over a wooden hut.

**TheMuncher** · 07-26-2005, 01:41 PM

How can the game be imbalanced? 32 Players on each team. SL failes to load then the next highest rank take over. If the Squads are small, then tell them to consolidate into other 1/2 size teams. In all fareness, you usualy end up wih the same team u played/commanded on the last map.

Imbalance doesn't come solely from numbers. If one team has the majority of the regulars, the team players, the people willing to play in CO or SL positions then it is imbalanced. Also, the issues isn't with a SL failing to load a map, it's with the SL not loading the map FAST enough. They'll still be in the game, just a few minutes after everyone else, giving the speed advantage to the enemy because your squads don't have orders, and are unsure of where to move out or where to spawn lest they get lost and left behind.

Here's my defense:

1. Single Base Defense- Get set in and set up. Use your vehicles to your advantage, have them hidden but still useful. Even jeeps and buggies can be devestating with their .50 cal. Set them up to take advantage of any chokepoints in a base, somewhere you can have a crossfire to take out any one or thing, with the FAV/DPV you can even have double the crossfire because of the two guns. If you have armor, set it up to be able to take advantage of any enemy armor that is able to get in your base (more on that later) and get a shot on their less armored sections. Have things like Health/Ammo in easy to reach but hidden places, places that aren't just out in the open so that whoever needs the supplies has to play red-rover against lead. Got a sniper? Good. Put him somewhere where he has the largest FOV possible, somewhere where he might not have all the best shots, but he will be able to spot any enemy that is near. Tell him not to worry about spamming, just to keep naming them off. Get your AT guys into areas that they can fire out on enemy armor that's blocked from getting in, but still be able to turn around and hit them in the back if they do get in. Keep the SL somewhere, outside the base prefferably where he can be the mobile respawn point, and if needed let the enemy have a little going away present. He should be somewhere where he can see the base, but is'nt noticeable.

-----1.1 Mines and C4- Try and put mines and C4 in inconspicious places, places like right above the top of a hill where enemy vehicles are likely to pass. If those mines miss, then have a backup plan of atleast 2 mines out in the open that will atleast deter enemy vehicles, making them think and stop before coming into your base. As for C4, since you can trigger it, it can be lain out of site where an enemy vehicle is likely to pass. If you have a base with one main vehicle entrance, 2 C4 packs on the sides of the road leading in can annihilate enemy vehicles. This is even better if the main attack route is a bridge. Simple lay 3 C4's in close concentration off to the side of the bridge, and set yourself up somewhere to watch said bridge, and if an enemy vehicle try's to cross, let them know about the toll. But, if you see a jeep crossing, but there is a Tank/APC right behind them, don't blow up the bridge for the jeep and leave the Tank/APC on the other side, let the jeep pass, hell have some C4 20ft up the road. But wait for the big guys to blow it, even if they can't get across the bridge, chances are they'll either continue to shell you, or simply get out and repair the bridge. As for C4 on the flag, the main key is still hiding it. If they see C4 then they know that someone is still alive, and will either have one guy capture the flag so it's a waste, or find you and just keep fighting ogg the respawning enemy. Set 1-2 C4 in the bushes around the flag, or 5-8 ft away on either side where the blast radius will still kill the enemy. Have the detonator be in the hands of the SL, so that he can hide, disrupt, and buy time for the squad to respawn and counter attack.

Ok, that took me awhile, and even if it's tactics not a stratagey, it's still a counter to DeathDealer's plan, simply by showing how to hold a base. I also know it's not very well written, and the tactics aren't even very good, but they're something that has worked for me. I only have 2 hours of computer time a day, so I might forego BF2 and write up a stratagey involving this plan, I dunno. Critique is welcome, along with exposing some holes in the plans and adding things on.

**Ski-Racer** · 07-26-2005, 01:48 PM

I CO'ed the late-night Karkland and my SLs were wonderful. About halfway through I would just say, "Arty will be up in 30 seconds, tell me where you need it." and a squad leader would give me a target on the map to shell. I did the same with the UAV and supplies. Just tell me where you need it and it's yours. We creamed the MEC.

What are my "commander tactics?"

1. I play to win. If stealing the enemy's lone jet helps us win then, well spec-ops squad, get on it. I have hovered on the side of a map in a stolen BFV huey for hours. Boring as hell but my side won each time.

2. This game is about tickets. Keep yours and bleed theirs. You bleed them with flags and frags. Don't allow the enemy to get cheap kills.

3. First priority is to stop the ticket bleed by holding a majority of flags plus an optional insurance flag.

4. Taking flags costs tickets in form of time and deaths.

4.1 There is no reason to try and clear the map. You win the flag war but lose the ticket war (and the game).
4.2 There is no reason to go after the closest enemy flag if it is heavily guarded. Go after the flag that is the cheapest to cap ticket-wise. That is usually an undefended back flag.
4.3 Send enough attackers to get the job done cleanly and quickly. No reason to waste 2 minutes of tickets (bleed and frags) sending 1 attacking squad against 1 defending squad. Send 2 to 3 squads to attack and leave 1 to defend while the rest move on.

5. Once you have established a ticket bleed by holding the majority of flags, frag the enemy's tickets to zero. Advance to stay engaged but do so very carefully behind a wall of friendly fire. Air Force, this is your time so rack-up the kills.

6. Defenders need to call-out advancing enemy and hold their flag long enough for me to arrange reinforcements. The last thing I need is to be surprised by a flag going gray.

----

As for the oilfields map, my intended strategy was to use 4 squads to hold 2 of the 3 flags in the west/southwest and 2 of the 3 flags in the east/northeast. The single-player squads would try and cheap-cap the center on their way to destroying enemy arty. I did not care which 2 of the 3 on either side (whichever is cheapest to cap). I was deliberately avoiding the center since it turns into a blender. My last squad would rapid reinforce.

Unfortunately, I had 4 squads trapped on the east/northeast side and still losing their flags. My 5th squad would not move from our main base.

**Deathdealer247** · 07-26-2005, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

You had some good quick response tactics when the US did take a flag or two, but really, it was a pushover. I wouldn't consider it a tactical victory any more than I consider it a tactical victory for a tank to roll over a wooden hut.

Yea, but what a beautiful sight it was. I wish I had a screencap of all the people I kill every time I arty. There were at least 3 where I got around 10 per strike. Hilarious.

Then I would type on the team message :"KabOooooM _____"

**kin3** · 07-26-2005, 03:09 PM

Nice post TheMuncher. Sounds like good use of resources.

**SmokingTarpan** · 07-26-2005, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Ski-Racer

1. I play to win. If stealing the enemy's lone jet helps us win then, well spec-ops squad, get on it.

I hope that when you think of this, you remember that going into an enemy's UCB for the purpose of stealing vehicles is against the server rules. You should only be entering the UCB to blow up enemy artillery/radar/UAV.

**|TG| B** · 07-26-2005, 03:35 PM

Busted!!!

**Deathdealer247** · 07-26-2005, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by TheMuncher

Here's my defense:

1. Single Base Defense- Get set in and set up. Use your vehicles to your advantage, have them hidden but still useful. Even jeeps and buggies can be devestating with their .50 cal. Set them up to take advantage of any chokepoints in a base, somewhere you can have a crossfire to take out any one or thing, with the FAV/DPV you can even have double the crossfire because of the two guns. If you have armor, set it up to be able to take advantage of any enemy armor that is able to get in your base (more on that later) and get a shot on their less armored sections. Have things like Health/Ammo in easy to reach but hidden places, places that aren't just out in the open so that whoever needs the supplies has to play red-rover against lead. Got a sniper? Good. Put him somewhere where he has the largest FOV possible, somewhere where he might not have all the best shots, but he will be able to spot any enemy that is near. Tell him not to worry about spamming, just to keep naming them off. Get your AT guys into areas that they can fire out on enemy armor that's blocked from getting in, but still be able to turn around and hit them in the back if they do get in. Keep the SL somewhere, outside the base prefferably where he can be the mobile respawn point, and if needed let the enemy have a little going away present. He should be somewhere where he can see the base, but is'nt noticeable.

-----1.1 Mines and C4- Try and put mines and C4 in inconspicious places, places like right above the top of a hill where enemy vehicles are likely to pass. If those mines miss, then have a backup plan of atleast 2 mines out in the open that will atleast deter enemy vehicles, making them think and stop before coming into your base............

What you've basically described is an "established" BP. With supplemental Battle positions but no secondary BP.

You do realize that even in a regualr combat unit (which I did command) it takes a crapload of time to organize and define sectors of fire. ROE, Engagement criterias and disengagement, retrograde procedures, coordination with higher assets (indirect for smoke pull out, CAS) takes at least a sector sketch and numerous rehearsals. In real life, mine are not there to kill, but to obstruct, delay and channel the Opfor.

In this case, you are better to set mine in one sector and then establishing defense in the other sector, thus maintaining the initiative.

What you've failed to grasp is that you have no logistics to defend, and usually, there are no sectors which you can neglect.

On a usualy flag, let say 3-5 structures, at least 2 key avenues of approach, it takes at least a 2 platoons to defend (in real life). And even in this game, you cannot expect to hold with 6 guys against an onslaught of over 5. The reason is simple.... you are spread out on defense, your vehicles are stationary, they are mobile, thus they have local fire superiorrity over u. So, at any of the 2 KAA, you will have around 3-4, however, since the Opfor is usually mobile and has the initiative, you will be swept by the momentum.

In the assault in these situation, the enemy has the momentum and concentration. They are like a spear, while you are not sure where they are coming from, despite the fact that you know they are coming from one direction.

In such a senario, the commander is ill advised to call out more forces to reinforce, because forces will arrive in piece meal, and not contribute significanly to overwhelming the enemy.

Thus its better to pull back, off the flag, just out of arty range. Ask the CDR for UAV, then ARTY, then counter attack with additional assets if available. Please await when the enemy are empty of base, and either got sick of getting artied or off to attack another.

The key is not to let the SL die. In this senario, the SL hangs back amd let his troops do the fighting. Seeking the opportune time to take back the realestate.

Conclusion: you plan is good, but not viable due to the time contraints and limitations of the game vs reality. Not to sound negative, but what kind of militayr training do u have? And at what level (if you are a O-4 and above, may i excuse myself at this point and beat my face-AKA "pushups")

**Ski-Racer** · 07-26-2005, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

I hope that when you think of this, you remember that going into an enemy's UCB for the purpose of stealing vehicles is against the server rules. You should only be entering the UCB to blow up enemy artillery/radar/UAV.

Originally Posted by |=V=| B [Ssgt]

Busted!!!

Heh, that is why I put it first. I think it's an artificial limitation. If it's stupid but it works then it isn't stupid. Fight your way out or don't let it happen to you in the first place.

2 platoons to guard one control point? Anyone can do that. The trick is to be able to guard it with 4 to 6. What do you do, tell your commander that he cannot achieve all of his other objectives because he needs to spend half of his assets guarding one point? That ignores the concept of scarcity. LOL no reason to continue this discussion.

**Deathdealer247** · 07-26-2005, 04:40 PM

In real life! That means a small village area will take around at least 2 platoons to secure. In a regular Inf unit, 2 PLT=60 men. Im sure you would understand if you've been to Tal Afar, Fallujiah, JRTC or NTC.....

2 platoons to guard one control point? Anyone can do that. The trick is to be able to guard it with 4 to 6. What do you do, tell your commander that he cannot achieve all of his other objectives because he needs to spend half of his assets guarding one point? That ignores the concept of scarcity. LOL no reason to continue this discussion.

No, you assess your area and look at the opposition. A good commander will spot them for you and then you assess the approaching force. You can flaunt skills all you want, but there are limitations to unit performance. Which means, I dont care if you are F'ing Delta Force, a platoon of them will not be able to hold of against a Mech Inf/Armor Company (Combined)Team.

As with all units, a easy objective will make them consolidate on the flag pole, and let down their security.... THATS THE MOMENT OF ATTACK. You will maintain initiative, and fire superiority.

You can fight hard or you can fight smart, your choice. Like I said, please go read some professional literature. If you actually bothered read my comment, you would understand that I recommended no reinforcement!

What is the concept of Scarcity? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity I dunno see the relevance.

And yes, if you difficult, stop being Rambo and tell the CDR you cannot hold, he need to have SITREPS.

Why is there no reason to further the discussion? Evaluation and improve is an unending and ceaseless process.

**Tempus** · 07-26-2005, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ski-Racer

Heh, that is why I put it first. I think it's an artificial limitation. If it's stupid but it works then it isn't stupid. Fight your way out or don't let it happen to you in the first place.

Just understand that thinking like that just won't fly here.. People looking to push the rules or interpret them to their own liking should visit another server.

**SmokingTarpan** · 07-26-2005, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Deathdealer247

On a usualy flag, let say 3-5 structures, at least 2 key avenues of approach, it takes at least a 2 platoons to defend (in real life). And even in this game, you cannot expect to hold with 6 guys against an onslaught of over 5.

Overall, you seem rather condescending toward your troops if they're not on the attack. From what I can see, you also completely underestimate the ability for people to hold a flag against any opposing force that isn't at least half their size.

I think this line of thought is going to jam you up somewhere on down the line. I can, and in fact have, held a flag against more than double my amount of men due to careful planning and positioning. On the flip side, I've also taken flags from forces twice my size (last night's Oilfields was a prime example). Please please please, stop thinking that the force with more numbers is always going to win.

Smart play doesn't mean smashing a fly with a sledgehammer. Smart play is knowing how to break the sledgehammer when you are the fly.

**TheMuncher** · 07-26-2005, 04:58 PM

The thing is, this isn't real life. You don't have to have 20min and a detailed sketch or report, I've organised defenses in under a minute simply using a voice comm. Another thing is, You don't always have to have a number superiority! I've seen 2 men hold a base against an entire squad with a tank. When you're defending in a game you don't have RoE, you don't have times to disengage or engage. In this type of enviroment, IMPROVISATION is key. You're under heavy fire, no way to hold the base. What happens? You improvise, tell your assault guy to pop a smoke while your support guys holds them off for as long as he can so you can get out with as much of your squad as possible. In this type of enviroment you don't have time or need to do rehearsals, things move to fast. As for their momentum, if they're a spear, then your defending squad is a foot of titanium. Let them rush in, let them walk right into the slaughterhouse that you set up with you .50 cals, let them sit on top of a few pounds of C4. You don't always have to have fire superiority, TACTICAL superiority is just as important. If their plan is to just drive in, have you tank ready to come around them and hit them from behind. In a single tank I took out 3 attack choppers, an APC, and atleast 5 SF/Engineers trying to kill me simply by using smoke and knowing when to pull back and repair.

By the by, I'm 14 and have absolutely no military experience.

**TG_Rizzo** · 07-26-2005, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ski-Racer

I think it's an artificial limitation.

Think away, buddy, but in the end it ain't up to you and that is all that matters. If the community rules say don't do, you don't do it. Period.

As my father used to say: "In this house we live by the Golden Rules: He who makes the gold, makes the rules."

**Ski-Racer** · 07-26-2005, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by Deathdealer247

In real life! That means a small village area will take around at least 2 platoons to secure. In a regular Inf unit, 2 PLT=60 men. Im sure you would understand if you've been to Tal Afar, Fallujiah, JRTC or NTC.....

Originally Posted by Deathdealer247

On a usualy flag, let say 3-5 structures, at least 2 key avenues of approach, it takes at least a 2 platoons to defend (in real life). And even in this game, you cannot expect to hold with 6 guys against an onslaught of over 5.

You said 6 people cannot hold a single flag against 5 attackers. You said you needed 2 platoons to guard a flag. So in BF2 you need 12 players...almost 40% of your force...to guard one flag?!?

Originally Posted by Deathdealer247

No, you assess your area and look at the opposition. A good commander will spot them for you and then you assess the approaching force. You can flaunt skills all you want, but there are limitations to unit performance. Which means, I dont care if you are F'ing Delta Force, a platoon of them will not be able to hold of against a Mech Inf/Armor Company (Combined)Team.

Read again. I said defend until I can arrange reinforcements. There is no Delta Force opposing a mechanized company. You have 25 to 32 players to spend so you will unlikely have 5 people defending against 15. It would be nice to spend 12 people guarding a single flag but any competent opponent would flank around you. So you have to make trade-offs because you have a scarcity of manpower. It's the same for attacking. Stripping defenders from other flags to mass for an assault weakens the defense of those flags. Scarcity.

Originally Posted by Deathdealer247

You can fight hard or you can fight smart, your choice. Like I said, please go read some professional literature. If you actually bothered read my comment, you would understand that I recommended no reinforcement!

Yes and you are wrong. Taking flags costs tickets in terms of time and deaths. Losing flags means you are bleeding tickets. Better to adopt a mobile defense and send reinforcements to flags that need it. You will have to spend the same amount of time, tickets, and manpower to retake a different flag anyways.

Originally Posted by Deathdealer247

Conclusion: you plan is good, but not viable due to the time contraints and limitations of the game vs reality. Not to sound negative, but what kind of militayr training do u have? And at what level

Originally Posted by Deathdealer247

Why is there no reason to further the discussion?

There is no reason to continue when some f'n ******* thinks that because he was in the military that no one else has anything worthwhile to say and then and flaunts around like a primadonna.

Thread Tools

Display