Re: Commander Tactics

**StrikeFear** · 07-26-2005, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Ski-Racer

LOL no reason to continue this discussion.

Ski-Racer, you've had some very excellent posts on this forum. I've learned a lot from them.
Don't be derogatory toward Deathdealer's post. Instead take SmokingTarpan's example. He's clearly strongly opposed in some aspects - but they are both (mostly) keeping their heads cool and having some seriously hardcore discussions on this forum (this isn't the only one).

As a result, we're all growing, learning and improving a lot. I really appreciate the strict discipline with which these guys are controlling themselves in the interest of discussion.

As it happens, you did miss some of his text - hence your misunderstanding. But that aside, don't treat his post (or anyone's) with contempt - he's clearly got intelligent, well-thought-out views on the matter. Wrong or right (or varying degrees), his posts do NOT deserve contempt.

I am guilty of the same knee-jerk reaction - let that be said along with this post.

**Ski-Racer** · 07-26-2005, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by StrikeFear

.

When he shows me the same.

**TG_Rizzo** · 07-26-2005, 05:55 PM

Let's not lose sight of why we're all here and why we play BF2 (or any online game for that matter): for entertainment. I play for fun. I play to wind down after a day of work/kids/wife/traffic and other assorted daily frustrations and stresses. The last thing I want is to be frustrated in a game I play as a release!

So, point is, while certain military strategies may be sound in real life (or not) that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be fun for the players involved. Real tactics/strategies don't always translate well in a game.

I personally think it's the CO's responsibility (as well as the SL's) to keep in mind that this is a game, first and foremost, and that the people playing with you, taking orders from you, are here for enjoyment and that you must do your best to promote FUN.

I try to do this when I'm SL. I think about my squad's enjoyment. I think "IF we do this, would it be fun or just frustrating?"

I don't want to vacate a flag everytime it comes under assault and get possibly caught with my pants down in an open field. That's not fun. I don't care how valid the strategy is, it's just not fun.

So, my advice to you is, think about the players first..then try to form your unique strategies. People will appreciate it and respect you for it. After all, it's only a game....

Rizzo out.

**Deathdealer247** · 07-26-2005, 06:05 PM

Quite the opposite, but if you read the initial post, you will come to understand that your "mobile defense" is just "defense in depth" in another wording.

However, understand that a good commander will not task a 6 man team to assault a 6 man defense, he will task at least 8-10.

You are hold that 2 platoon statement at its literal, which I meant :
1) The attacker will always have the initative.
2) Static defense will be your doom against a skilled and cordinated unit.

That statement is placed emphasis upon my conclusion from previous evaluation of (MUNCHER'S post, not urs)that:

1) Yes, your defense is quite sound, but time consuming. Providing enemy commander time to shower you with arty. There is a reason why FM 7-8 always stress that team conducting ambush to get off the OBJ as soon as search for intel is complete off the dead enemy casualties. As standard, you should not stay more than 30-60 sec on the OBJ conducted by a squad size element.
2) You neglect that 2 vehicles with an over lapping field of fire can defend only 1 avenue of approach.
3) If you defned everywhere, you are defending nowhere.
4) A coordinated defense inside a built up area by combined arms can often be very hectic, and thus lead to friendly fire. Imagine tanks and APCs runnig everywhere, mine, buggies, SF, Snipers, and you got a recipe for disaster.
5) In a game, that kind of training and coordination cannot be achieved....with present technology. You need to know your teamates, and have sub SL chain of command.......because execution of a comlex tactical manuever with live fire is only executed by elite professional units under SOCOM. Even then, they are still very limited in scope.

My assessment of the situation is that since attack/ambush is the strong suite of a squad size unit, the best trategy is to maintain the offense. Larger units can do alot more, but the essesnce of localized defense it to allow the passage of line, and facilitate friendly force advance to the next phase line. Defense for defense sake is somewhat foolhardy. A good example would be the IJA vs USMC on the Island Hopping Campaigns.

The better appraoch would be to retrograde to near by concealment, await UAV to show the enemy consolidating (since it take at least 2-3 to take a flag) on OBJ, then attack en masse. Technically you are still in defense.....

I admitt I come off as boastful, but realize that professional people train and study for years to become combined arms manuever warfare leaders. And it cost you, the taxpayers, millions to train a good one.

And for raising the temperature in here, I appoligize.

The ball is in your court.
.
.
.
.
And to answer Rizzo...... I always have fun when my pants is down. Hehehehe, just kidding, point well taken.

**TheMuncher** · 07-26-2005, 06:47 PM

This is what happened last time I was under your command: This is for the commanders. When you have one flag left, and everyone is spawning there, don't send the squad that spent the entire game defending that position and holding it across that map to assault some flag. Today in Dirt's squad we defended against countless assaults, finally we're the only flag left for the MEC and everyone spawns there only to be ordered out to different flags and killed without gaining a CP that we held. We moved out to a base that was wide open, capped it only to have our main base lost and us recalled to it. We get killed on the way up, and the main flag was lost, leaving no one to spawn. All because the commander sent a full squad that was used to defense and had a good tactical positions to use in defense on this flag out to an enemy flag.

Our SL asked 2-3 times if we could stay and do a static defense, but we were sent to a base with very little tactical significance, it only spawned 1 Humvee, and because of that we lost our main base. I have nothing against you Death, just IMO your stratagey is flawed, you need static defense SOMEWHERE, arty and UAV aren't always just readily availible. At one time or another you need to make a stand and hold somewhere. This happened yesterday, I'm pretty sure it was Mashtuur.

**Deathdealer247** · 07-26-2005, 10:55 PM

Well, u win some and u lose some. Even Erich von Manstein lost from time to time (Mac was a drama queen and a glory hog).

The tactical significance was in getting other spawn points itself. Frankly, in Mashtuur there are NO bases of vast tactical signicance. Since all obstacles can be bypassed, and even the bridge is not really an obstacle since there are few combat vehicles, and most inf crosses through the riverbed. Even the commander assets are at opposite points of the map. Mashturr is like combat in the desert which in itself is like naval warfare, its all about attrition.

My concern was that:

1) The helipad base was far from any of the bases, thus its was not a good operational assembly area. If you were to attack any bases, it would be extremely telepathic, resulting in a divided force meeting a determined, forwarned and established foe.

2) By being far and away, and lacking transport, you are asking for arty.

3) By attacking multiple targets, it was hoped that the sustained assault on our final and last outpost can be diminished.

Thus the decision was made to move out and secure other bases from which you had a chance of turning a slow and withering defeat into a narrow victory.

No commander wins all of the time. To say defend 100% of the time is just as wrong as attack 100% of the time. But when you are threatened within a hair of your own existence, there can be only one final gamble to salvage what little you had left.

Honestly, I'd rather lose like that than be a body count for the gleeful jarheads up in the UH-60 returning time and again to harvest my frustration.

Of course, Muncher, hindsight is always 20/20.

**SmokingTarpan** · 07-27-2005, 01:37 AM

I think more of what Muncher was getting at is along the same lines of frustrations that I tend to have. If a squad has been defending a flag for quite some time and has been doing exceedingly well, it might not be the best idea to replace them.

From what I read of the situation, it was basically down to 1 flag for the MEC. I understand that you wanted to move people out fast and hopefully draw the enemy off, but doing so risked the only secure spawn point. I've seen CO's do the OMG 1 Flag Scramble(tm), and it has always ended in a terrible loss.

As a SL that specializes in defense, I have one very big pet peeve. I hate it when I've been defending a flag successfully for a long time and get replaced by another squad so that the CO can have me attack somewhere. Every single time this happens, the flag we were guarding falls inside the 3min mark (I take bets with my squaddies). Then, without fail, I'm ordered to go back and recap the flag that shouldn't have fallen in the first place. It's frustrating.

**ThePleasureMan** · 08-01-2005, 01:36 PM

Dealing with DeathDealer's strategy:

So, yesterday I had the opportunity to function as a SL under DeathDealer's command for a few rounds. On the first map, my squad was defending a flag that came under medium attack. We got the order to move out, and my guys were shouting in defiance and asking things like, "what? is he crazy? they'll take this flag!" Since I had read this thread, I told everyone to be patient because it's part of this CO's tactics. We went with the flow, and eventually our team won with something like a 400 ticket lead. Pretty impressive.

The next couple of maps weren't quite as stellar of successes, but wins nonetheless. However, the biggest concern was the "fun" aspect of it all. On the first map, we acted mostly as the aggressor, jumping from flag to flag as the primary attack. That was pretty fun. On the second map, we were mostly on defense but under a steady attack so it kept us busy. The third map was the biggest problem, since we were stuck on defense at a rear base and got kind of bored.

So as a SL, I try to relieve boredom by sending out two or three people at a time to help out attacks on other flags. Eventually, though, the flag to our east started coming under regular attack and everytime we rushed it, our original flag would become contested. We adapted to this by splitting our squad in half and straddling the two flags.

So, yeah. If you're ever stuck in a low-activity area, it can pay to send small dispatches of your squad to roam around, based on map activity. If our flag is very secure, I'll sometimes go out myself with a couple others, so I can act as a spawn point on the secondary objective.

---
gijoe|downtown

**Deathdealer247** · 08-01-2005, 10:49 PM

I understand how others have mixed feelings about my style of command and my use of verbal "encouragements". Thus I try not to be CDR. However, the other night, there were often vacant slot for CDRs, and so I took the initiative.

As Pleasure stated above, I have made some substantial changes to the plan. Hence, there are defensive squads as well as offensive squads, all of which are dictated by 2 factors:
1) enemy behavior
2) squad location and terrain/ equipment spawn it is guarding.

As the map progresses, the enemy began to be far more adaptive to my tactics and began moving off base as soon as they spawn, vehicle or not (Mashtuur)...... this resulted in the decreasing effectiveness of the arty.

Defense is very boring, but at the same time, it is very very neccessary, particularly at the radar/uav/arty ome bases.

I have also learned to let the SLs make the call on their ability to hold on to the bases. I would spot the enemy, alert the squad, observe the contact, and ask if the SL can hold on.

Essentially on Karkand and Mashtuur there are 3 kind of squads:
1) Home defense (At UAV/Arty home base)
2) Flexible mobile defense (Usually at center flags, to mitigate response time)
3) Offensive flag takers.

As always, thanks for the feedback.

Thread Tools

Display