Re: Let's talk tactics (Dalian Plant)

**perry** · 09-19-2005, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by JMJ

I can't remember who the 6th man was on the team, but for some reason I think it was James315......Do you remember that James?

How can you forget Bubba?!?!

**JMJ** · 09-19-2005, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by perry

How can you forget Bubba?!?!

Doh!!!!!!! You're right, my support guy....sorry bubba!

**Wulfyn** · 09-19-2005, 01:00 PM

I dont agree. A smart SL keeps his squad together in the center of the building, with a scout on either side as not to be blind. When attacked from one side he pulls the scout from the other side with him, so effectively he is dividing his squad 5-1 wich is a good trade of for not being blind.

A squad leader that groups his guys in the middle is not paying any attention to the environment, or his angles. By leaving himself in the middle he makes himself very vulnerable to shots coming in. If an APC or a tank were to make it to the entrance of the warehouse then they would be able to sit outside it and fire into your position. This is made even worse if you are grouped together, as you risk losing half the squad to a single shot. The best place for a SL is by the south entrance right at the top. You have a good view below you, and the enemy have to get quite far in to chuck a grenade up there. Have a medic nearby you to cover the west door, and a support guy to cover the door below you to kill any grenadiers.

The distraction idea is also one of my main problems with the 3/3 fireteam principle. You are halving your squad in order to make it easier to cap the flag. So say the enemy SL sends half his squad (his fireteam) off to chase the distraction, you are really no better off (although individual skill and luck now play a more important role). The draw is a very common tactic in order to force an enemy leader to weaken his position by separating his squad, but in order to make it effective you have to draw more guys than you ask to do the drawing. Even one guy (or better yet a vehicle) can cause enough of a distraction to test the enemy's discipline in many circumstances (especially in areas with a surrounding fence or wall, like the southern warehouse on Dalian, or the little forts in Zatar). A common attack to cap a flag in Zatar is to have a vehicle fire from an entrance, buggering off when he gets painted, but grabbing the enemies attention for long enough that your squad can pile in from the other side. But that's going in with a 5-1 split, which is much stronger.

**James315** · 09-19-2005, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Wulfyn

So say the enemy SL sends half his squad (his fireteam) off to chase the distraction, you are really no better off (although individual skill and luck now play a more important role). The draw is a very common tactic in order to force an enemy leader to weaken his position by separating his squad, but in order to make it effective you have to draw more guys than you ask to do the drawing.

I believe he's suggesting that all 3 of your distraction team will get themselves killed and then respawn on the other group. Assuming a residual distraction effect after the distraction team is killed off, the defenders will refocus themselves where they had just been attacked, not realizing that the full squad of six will suddenly attack them from the other direction.

Even if only three defenders are drawn away after the three distractors, it will be 6v3.

The placement of armor (warehouse includes an APC) may complicate this scenario.

**Wulfyn** · 09-19-2005, 02:09 PM

But surely a competent squad leader, having seen his squad kill off a small attack force will get his positions set back up.

After all the 3 guys that die have to wait 20 seconds before being part of the other assault. I can't really see how a 20 second wait between distraction and main assault is going to improve things. A competent SL expects to be attacked from any direction at any time (after all even if this were the entire squad that was attacking you, who's to say a different squad won't hit you from the other side at the same time? Or a helo come in, or a technical etc etc..).

The key in taking flags is in stretching the defenders. A 20 second wait will not do this in my opinion.

**Limenote** · 09-19-2005, 02:22 PM

unless you can convince the enemy that you have a full attack at the decoy squad location, most competent squadleaders dont break all that troops off their posts unless its an ovious heavy push

**James315** · 09-19-2005, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by Wulfyn

But surely a competent squad leader, having seen his squad kill off a small attack force will get his positions set back up.

I agree, assuming that they know all of the attackers have been killed. They might still be out there looking for more of them unless there's a clear UAV there, or if they immediately fall back after the area first appears to be clear.

It may not stretch out the defense much, but does it stretch the defense more than it would be if you never sent the distractors out in the first place? Will it delay a full defense of the other side when it gets attacked by the 6 (i.e. they assume they're now being attacked from both sides)? A competent SL with competent squaddies may not be fooled, but isn't it always a good thing to place such demands on a defending squad/SL?

**Wulfyn** · 09-19-2005, 06:27 PM

Maybe, but that tactic cost you 3 tickets right off. Personally I still don't think that it is worth it. Each to their own tho!

**Ol'Smoke** · 09-20-2005, 05:46 AM

This attack is against a generic defence. Another option would be to split your squad 5-1 with "1" being the squadleader.
One advantage of this kind of attack it that it gives you an opportunity to test your opponent out.

mare_cccp · 09-20-2005, 06:29 AM

I've never seen a squad doing this:

I'm crazy about situtation awareness, I know... but, this looks like a logical defensive positions, don't you agree? Me and my squad always ends up being "suprised" by a tank (now how can this be?), so I'm thinking, if every squad member would do a proper scanning (lookout) job, we could have the right answer on every problem for our defense.

comments?

EDIT: this is just an example, it's just to show you a method, not to discuss about is that the right place for AT gunner, or whatever...

**Ol'Smoke** · 09-20-2005, 07:51 AM

I agree on the importance of situational awareness. Generally only one squadmember (one with a mic of course) on a smart position can do the job.

mare_cccp · 09-20-2005, 11:48 AM

well, in some cases, yes...
I realy hate when they (SMs) gather around me... I mean, what the hell are you doing??? Come on, if an APC comes from our back, he can eliminate us all in like 2 secs... and on the same map, I saw a AT guy "covering" the rear entrance of Maintenance building by crouching in the corner at the left wall (looking from the inside)... what the hell??? you gonna wait for tank to come in, shoot all of us, so that you could pet him with one miserable rocket, and then what? what will happen when he sees the "right side red damage indicator"?

my overall impresion on infantry warefare:
1. people rush too much (like crazy!).
2. people don't know what's going on, and don't feel like they should.

**JMJ** · 09-20-2005, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by mare_cccp

well, in some cases, yes...
I realy hate when they (SMs) gather around me... I mean, what the hell are you doing??? Come on, if an APC comes from our back, he can eliminate us all in like 2 secs... and on the same map, I saw a AT guy "covering" the rear entrance of Maintenance building by crouching in the corner at the left wall (looking from the inside)... what the hell??? you gonna wait for tank to come in, shoot all of us, so that you could pet him with one miserable rocket, and then what? what will happen when he sees the "right side red damage indicator"?

my overall impresion on infantry warefare:
1. people rush too much (like crazy!).
2. people don't know what's going on, and don't feel like they should.

IMO, those are pretty low statements of your fellow players. It's your job as a SL to place guys where you think they need to be placed and to help them out if they aren't sure as to what they are supposed to be doing. If you aren't willing to place your men in strategic spots and give them guidance, you shouldn't be squad leading. Not everyone has the presence of mind to be looking back every 3 seconds. A lot of people are still joining us here who are new to BF2 and don't fully understand the concept of squad based play yet. Others just struggle with it but want to learn and are willing to do anything you tell them so they can help the team out.

As for the AT guy, maybe he was trying to save tickets by staying alive? Maybe a sniper was taking shots at him from a rooftop or elsewhere (been a victim of this myself)?

In a forest fire you should think about being the rain and not the wind.

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