Re: UCB - driving to destroyable assets

**ChIck3nL3gz** · 03-18-2006, 11:11 PM

Whats to be confused about?

You are not allowed to enter the UCB unless you are going to destroy assets. You can not fire upon enemy soldiers in the UCB unless they fire upon you. You may not take a vehicle while inside the UCB;UNLESS; you may take a vehicle for escape of the UCB after your objective of asset destruction is completed.

I think its pretty well laid out.

**munchkin** · 03-18-2006, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by kornkobcom

So now I'm confused-- where in the rules then does it say I can't steal, say, an APC to escape, if that's the only means available (or if they are chasing me with an APC).

Just be sensible. Taking that APC would be taking an armour piece - I believe the consensus is that jets, choppers and armour are off-limits, and a buggy or a boat may be taken for the sole purpose of leaving the UCB.

**kornkobcom** · 03-18-2006, 11:40 PM

That's just it, Chicken-- it ISN'T laid out. When we see someone new show up on the server, we expect them to follow the rules and send them off to read the rules if they say 'gee-- I didn't know'. Yet no where in the rules does it indicate that there are some vehicles you can steal to 'make an escape' but others you cannot steal.

In fact, it is very explicit about entering the UCB with the intent of stealing a vehicle.

2) Players are not allowed into the enemy UCB for any reason other than for the sole purpose of destroying the enemy's assets (artillery/uav/radar). Restricted acts include 2. Entering the UCB with the intent of stealing any vehicle.

Now, is there a specific prohibition with 'just happening' to steal a vehicle? No. but what is the difference between showing up to blow up the assets and then stealing a vehcile and showing up to steal a vehicle and thinking 'gee-- how am I going to get out of here now? Wow-- here's a jeep/truck/apc--- maybe I'll snag that!'. It's a sliver's hair difference, really, especially when viewed from a 3rd person.

It sure seems to me that making an 'exception' for stealing a vehicle for 'an escape' is really stretching the rules and creating significant opportunities for misudnerstanding-- especially for new players.

**smallfatcat** · 03-19-2006, 12:00 AM

OK, the rule is that everyone can steal the ucb vehicles except kornkobcom. Nice and simple

**Lucky Shot** · 03-19-2006, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by kornkobcom

I think the rules are pretty explicit. They indicate that vehicles are off limits. Off limits means, at least to my former military mind, exactly that--- off limits as in: You cannot touch this at all.

A UCB Assault is where you are attacking Vehicles within the UCB. So what that means is that you can't attack a vehicle within the UCB. So you are in the base and you are fired upon by a tank, take down the tank. You can't, however, drive in and C4 their vehicles, or drive a tank into their UCB and assault their vehicles.

The rules are very explicit, but again, it's in the interpretation. Vehicle Assault is VERY different than Asset Attack, or Escape from UCB. Take down the assets, then get out. You cannot assault vehicles, but you can use vehicles to drive out. I am kind of surprised that we are even allowing people to drive out using tanks and APC's.

For those who want to protect against dropping supply crates on assets, blow the asset, then place an extra c4 charge on every destroyed asset. Watch from a distance then blow it once you see the Supply Crate drop.

Lucky Shot

**kornkobcom** · 03-20-2006, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

A UCB Assault is where you are attacking Vehicles within the UCB. So what that means is that you can't attack a vehicle within the UCB. So you are in the base and you are fired upon by a tank, take down the tank. You can't, however, drive in and C4 their vehicles, or drive a tank into their UCB and assault their vehicles.

That's never been in question, really-- you can defend yourself. That's explicit and nothing siad in this thread makes that more complicated.

However, the 'you can steal vehicles' interpretation....that's confusing.

The rules are very explicit, but again, it's in the interpretation. Vehicle Assault is VERY different than Asset Attack, or Escape from UCB. Take down the assets, then get out. You cannot assault vehicles, but you can use vehicles to drive out. I am kind of surprised that we are even allowing people to drive out using tanks and APC's.

And that's what is confusing me. The interpretation I am hearing is that you are allowed to steal vehicles. However, there seems to be some other vague notion of not being able to steal certain vehicles.

I'm trying to get a handle on where it tells a new player that they can steal vehicles to 'make an escape' or drive from one asset to another. More imporntatly I'd like to udnerstand how that new guy is supposed to know that he can steal some vehicles but the others are off limits.

What I thought was a very clear issue (vehicles are off limits) is now a very complicated one (well-- you can steal some vheicles some of the time but not all of the vheicles)

**ChIck3nL3gz** · 03-20-2006, 12:34 PM

The way I understand it is you can "Bogart" an enemy Vodnik or buggy or boat for your escape out of the UCB or for transportation from one asset tot he next. Or you can "Bogart" an enemy Vodnik, buggy or boat from any other flag for transportation.

You can not "bogart" enemy armor under any circumstances because it in effect gives you an unfair advantage in that you are using their big weapons against them when you have your own.

Makes sense to me.

I also feel that if you are going to the enemy UCB to destroy the assets that using a vehicle to get there and using a vehicle to move between assets would be a bad thing as it gives you a greater chance of being spotted. More so while in the UCB. If you are foot you can avoid contact much easier. Especially in a UCB. Because it usually takes a few seconds for an enemy soldier to realize you are an enemy. If they spot you in a vehicle moving from the UAV trailer to the arty then they will most liely know you are going to destroy something.

**JimmyTwoHand** · 03-20-2006, 03:15 PM

I think the SOPs are clear enough. Do we really want to micromanage every part of the game in such minute detail? I wouldnt have thought so. Common sense has to rule most of the time and if an on the spot clarification is needed thats what the admins are there for.

Is there a degree of wiggle room in the SOPs? Yes. And im all for that. I think it would be even worse for a new player to be confronted with a barrage of detail covering every possible occurence and situation. Simplicity has to be the best option.

I think Raymanfu's question has been answered completely here already. The SOPs explicitly cover most eventualities that fall within UCB paramaters. This one is not covered explicitly and the admin response seems to be that vehicles are ok to take if one is affecting an escape. It also seems it would be preferable that these be non-armoured.

I really dont see why there would be need for further clarification. This is seemingly an area where common sense must rule. I doubt thats a problem with the mature TG community and although if this continues to be pushed there could be further clarifications made in the rules i dont think that would either be desirable or necessary.

But thats just my 2 farthings and i could be terribly wrong and missing a problem which blights the server on a regular basis....

**kornkobcom** · 03-20-2006, 03:20 PM

I'm trying to figure out how a new person is supposed to know that they cannot steal some vehciles but they can steal others. I'm not seeing any clarity on that at all.

As near as I can tell there's an unwritten rule about stealing certain vehicles but not others. I can't figure out how the new guy is supposed to figure that out before he gets kicked for violating said rule.

**JimmyTwoHand** · 03-20-2006, 05:04 PM

All game engines have limitations due to the simple nature that they are games and produced largely for their entertainment. How you interpret these limitations will determine if you truly do understand why Tactical Gamer is here and if you support our goals.

It is a common sense issue for both the player and the admin. My interpretation of the rules is no vehicles to be touched in the UCB. But i do not go on asset destruction missions too often. I think most new players who embrace the TG style of play will do likewise and err on the side of caution. If it becomes an issue then this forum, the other players and the server admins are all there to clarify if the question is asked.

If not, then someone who blows an asset, grabs a buggy and speeds away and someone else who blows an asset, grabs an APC and then sits just outside the UCB boundary plinking people will not be treated the same way by those making the judgement.

In my experience TG is incredibly understanding of new players and especially someone who can point to the SOPs he has read and understandbly explain why he was doing what he was. I dont think it will be a major problem, but like i say, i could be wrong.

I understand you point, and you are right, there is room for misunderstanding and grey areas. Im just trying to say that it is better to have simpler rules which promote a "spirit" and style of play and let the players make the individual calls in the TG way than micromanage every area of the game with complex rules. I have full confidence that any rulings that fall in to this category will be handled diplomatically and fairly.

**kornkobcom** · 03-20-2006, 05:32 PM

I agree that making a complicated rule set is not preferred. I too agree that supporting the spirit of TG is more important than making complicated rulesets.

I guess I disagree that this particular grey area makes it more simple. The simple answer would be to make all vehicles untouchable in the UCB, not just the 'valuable ones'. Nor do I think that not taking the 'valuable' vehicles is 'common sense'. Common sense says blow the assets, take the biggest thing there and get out of dodge (because staying there and spawnkilling IS specifically prohibited).

I suspect that more often than not, if a mature person is kicked form a server for reasons they don't understand, most of the time they simply don't come back. They aren't going to spend a lot of effort trying to argue or figure it out. They'll figure that it's not worth the hassle and they'll find someplace else to be. I believe that TG loses good people if the rules aren't clear and people are bumped for vague and ill defined reasons.

**FPS_Douglas** · 03-21-2006, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by icky

if I spawn and immediately get killed by you in my UCB, you are going to find yourself off of the server within seconds.

A warning is much more appropriate for something that happens once. If someonen engages me in the UCB, I will kill them regardless of where they are, which is well within the rules. If a stray bullet takes out someone who spawned, that is unintentional. Remember, the rules imply a certain intent. A kick for that is bad form. I've also been told in the past that you can kill whoever is repairing the assets as well.

IMO you should not be able to take any vehicle orther than buggies/jeeps/boats out of a UCB. If you are allowed, some, even in this community, will use that as a loophole to steal enemy tanks/APCs. As good as this community is, there are still many who will do anything within the rules to win, and in some cases, that means exploiting loop holes. Intent is implied in a lot of rules.

**Thierry** · 03-22-2006, 10:51 AM

So simply put:

1. You can use TRANSPORT vehicles to escape (no tanks or choppers, just jeeps)
2. You can go into the UCB to destroy Assets and assets alone
3. You can stay in the UCB if your orders are to keep the Assets down and out of action.
4. You can defend yourself if attacked, but not attack unless its an engineer to repair Assets that you have to keep down or its the enemy commander.

5. You cannot steal or destroy vehicles unless attacked.
6. You cannot kill a player when he/she spawns, keep 'defending' the Assets but do not kill them unless attacked.
7. You cannot mine UCB vehicles.
8. Unless you are after the Assets and making your way out, ALL UCB vehicles are OFF LIMITS.

That sum it up?

**kornkobcom** · 03-22-2006, 10:57 AM

And if those rules were somewhere new people could easily find them, I'd say things were pretty clear. However, new players would have to be some serious rules lawyers to gather that from the TG rules we constantly refer people to.

**JimmyTwoHand** · 03-22-2006, 11:25 AM

Has anyone actually noticed this being a big problem on the server? My take is that new people with the right mindset will be erring on the side of caution. Its only those of us who are hooked on it that delve into the minutiae of the rules like this. If this isnt a problem then i dont see a need to clarify things beyond where they stand. I understand your point, agree to some extent but still feel that putting the rules up in big letters (i think they are pretty clear and easy to find anyway) and mapping every possibility will lose us more people than the occasional misunderstanding about a finer point of the law. just my .02.

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