Re: A question about rules

**snooggums** · 04-23-2008, 09:32 AM

Not bad for a rule of thumb, and I was just reminding the other poster as I was not sure they were clear that you had indicated that. There are however times that attacking a flag out of order can benefit the team such as preventing reinforcements to the current flags in play but this only works when it is the nearest rallying point for the enemy and only if you are slowing more troops that you are using to do so. It can also set up a unit to make the next flag set fall quicker, but generally it's only if the area is clear and the flags in the current set will be capped quickly.

It's a good rule of thumb to focus on the current flag and have squads with more experience on the ebb and flow of flag capping to guess when to move ahead. I love it when the enemy is focusing on a flag out of order when it allows me to finish the flag I'm working on.

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 04-23-2008, 01:59 PM

Spawn killing is against the rules afaik, anywhere on the map. You have to try and destroy or capture the spawn point not just sit there collecting kills

This used to happen on the old Road to Kyongan'Ni, there was a spawn point at a flag that could not be captured (before the rest of the flags) and the chinese would sit there killing people as they spawned like it was a clever tactic or something. Glad they fixed it now anyway

**snooggums** · 04-23-2008, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Sabre_Tooth_Tigger

Spawn killing is against the rules afaik, anywhere on the map. You have to try and destroy or capture the spawn point not just sit there collecting kills

That is not anywhere in the current rules, but the TG way is to attempt to destroy a rally instead of gaining kills for your score. Sometimes camping a rally until teammates catch up is needed and 'spawnkilling' is the most effective way to cover that area until they arrive. As long as it is not at main it's fine, but killing the rally is preferable.

As both team have many places to spawn (or should) camping a forward rally is not like the previous spawncamping issues. Just spawn at a new rally if one is compromised.

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 04-23-2008, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by snooggums

That is not anywhere in the current rules, but the TG way is to attempt to destroy a rally instead of gaining kills for your score. Sometimes camping a rally until teammates catch up is needed and 'spawnkilling' is the most effective way to cover that area until they arrive. As long as it is not at main it's fine, but killing the rally is preferable.

As both team have many places to spawn (or should) camping a forward rally is not like the previous spawncamping issues. Just spawn at a new rally if one is compromised.

Correct. Kill the rally or bunker ASAP.

Killing players that spawns in while covering your teammate running with a knife to take it out is not spawn camping - it's covering your teammate's butt.

Again - don't cry foul unless you know the entire circumstance (which is impossible if you're not on the other team).

For example, a squad stumbles across a bunker/firebase. They do not have a Spec Ops, Engineer, or even a H-AT. Should they just move away and let the other team enjoy the use of that spawn point because they can't take it out? I wouldn't. I'd let the CO know, spot it for the team, and keep it suppressed until a squad with the proper assets to destroy the thing showed up. What's wrong with that? Nothing. If the other team doesn't talk and inform everyone that the position is compromised and continue to spawn into the slaughter, then they're getting what they deserve.

**Skud** · 04-23-2008, 04:37 PM

Nail on the head...

Your priority when spotting a spawn point is to destroy it ASAP or by any means get someone to do it ASAP. The longer you stay shooting at an enemy bunker, the more attention your squad will get from the enemy team anyway.

Be as fast as you can and get a spawnpoint dealt with before you get wiped out yourself.

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 04-23-2008, 05:44 PM

Yea I'd do the same thing Hero posted but what I was refering to is:

Spawn Camping
On our BF2 server, spawn camping is not permitted.

"Spawn camping" requires a certain INTENT. To spawn camp, it must be your INTENT to EXPLOIT a player's post-spawn lack of orientation while attacking that player. You are sitting (camp), waiting to attack a player immediately after he enters gameplay (spawn). This is spawn camping, and it is not allowed on Tactical Gamer's BF2 server.

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...uidelines.html

Its probably covered by the primer too, dont exploit game mechanics which rules out driving in circles running people over and other not completely obvious rule breaks

**snooggums** · 04-23-2008, 07:35 PM

Those are the old vanilla rules that also applied to POE2 and Tacmod. We really only need to follow the new shiny and 100% snooggums approved new PR rule sticky in this forum as they cover everything needed.

**Skud** · 04-23-2008, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by snooggums

Those are the old vanilla rules that also applied to POE2 and Tacmod. We really only need to follow the new shiny and 100% snooggums approved new PR rule sticky in this forum as they cover everything needed.

Snooggums stamp of approval!

**Bisclaveret** · 04-23-2008, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

For example, a squad stumbles across a bunker/firebase. They do not have a Spec Ops, Engineer, or even a H-AT. Should they just move away and let the other team enjoy the use of that spawn point because they can't take it out? I wouldn't. I'd let the CO know, spot it for the team, and keep it suppressed until a squad with the proper assets to destroy the thing showed up. What's wrong with that? Nothing. If the other team doesn't talk and inform everyone that the position is compromised and continue to spawn into the slaughter, then they're getting what they deserve.

I'm sorry, but this leaves a LOT of wiggleroom and loopholes. How long should you continue to "suppress" this spawn? 30 seconds? 2 minutes? camp outside it and continue to shoot anyone that spawns in while you wait for someone to grab a kit from the other side of the map and drag it here?(also being reminded that you can easily resupply any and all of your own weapons from the bunker while it's empty) If thats the case, it's better to let it be known theres one there for other people to deal with and MOVE ON.

Furthermore, what's the difference between doing this on a destroyable and doing it on a limited time spawnable (for example, the spawnpoints on 7 Gates or Mestia that only last 5 or so minutes)? Since they disapear on thier own, can you simply claim you were just supressing the spawn on the flag until you could cap it?

This is why those anti-spawnkilling rules were in place. There's only a few places where spawning in from a spawnpoint will place you. If you have a squad surrounding the spawnpoint and killing people as soon as they pop up, that is spawnkilling/raping plain and simple, particularly if you just have to settle your sights on where you know the guy's going to pop into the world, and something that (at least used to be) heavily discouraged at TG. There SHOULD be a hard rule in place regarding this issue.

Just because it would never occur to me to do this type of thing, or simply saying "yeah, but TG Players should know enough to not try doing this" doesn't mean that people WON'T do it, and then try to justify saying there's nothing telling them they CAN'T.

**thegreatnardini** · 04-23-2008, 09:15 PM

Maybe, but if it was nearly impossible to enforce the no-HAT on infantry rule how can we as admins be expected to enforce a no spawn camping policy? In the end we'd be kicking allot of people who were falsely reported and it would just start pissing everyone off.

Simplicity is the key, if something does get out of hand that is specifically not on the new rule set the admins will deal with it on a case-for-case basis.

**Bisclaveret** · 04-23-2008, 09:51 PM

If you can't support or enforce a no-spawnkilling policy, how can you enforce a no-UCB rape policy, or any other policy therafter? Remember how wishy-washy it was when people would continuously sneak into UCBs to destroy artillery, etc, and would hide under the shield of "we're a spec-ops squad, destroying assets, why're you looking at us?" while simultaneously killing people with knives or guns.

If we could still spawn on captured flags, would you continue to support the notion that setting a few snipers outside a flag and continously killing the enemy as soon as they popped into the world was a valid tactic? It's the exact same thing.
Edit: Relying on the community to police and check itself is all fine and dandy, but will pretty much only work with the most hardened or jaded oldtimers who know the rules and policies by heart. Asking people "can you see the use or value in doing X beyond the immediate short term consequences" can only go so far.

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 04-23-2008, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bisclaveret

I'm sorry, but this leaves a LOT of wiggleroom and loopholes. How long should you continue to "suppress" this spawn? 30 seconds? 2 minutes? camp outside it and continue to shoot anyone that spawns in while you wait for someone to grab a kit from the other side of the map and drag it here?(also being reminded that you can easily resupply any and all of your own weapons from the bunker while it's empty) If thats the case, it's better to let it be known theres one there for other people to deal with and MOVE ON.

Furthermore, what's the difference between doing this on a destroyable and doing it on a limited time spawnable (for example, the spawnpoints on 7 Gates or Mestia that only last 5 or so minutes)? Since they disapear on thier own, can you simply claim you were just supressing the spawn on the flag until you could cap it?

This is why those anti-spawnkilling rules were in place. There's only a few places where spawning in from a spawnpoint will place you. If you have a squad surrounding the spawnpoint and killing people as soon as they pop up, that is spawnkilling/raping plain and simple, particularly if you just have to settle your sights on where you know the guy's going to pop into the world, and something that (at least used to be) heavily discouraged at TG. There SHOULD be a hard rule in place regarding this issue.

Just because it would never occur to me to do this type of thing, or simply saying "yeah, but TG Players should know enough to not try doing this" doesn't mean that people WON'T do it, and then try to justify saying there's nothing telling them they CAN'T.

Dude - if you can make it to one of those temporary spawns on Mestia or 7Gates and camp it then you're 10,000 times the player I am.

You're right. Next time I run across a firebase and I can't take it out I'm going to just turn my back on it and move on. Absolutely.

GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK!

And don't play that game "How long is acceptable" - what a load. If there is a rally and I'm going for it when someone spawns in and I kill him, am I spawn camping? Yes? No? How in the heck would you know?

The anti-spawn camping rules are BF2 VANILLA and POE rules! You know, where you can spawn on any flag that you own! How hard is it to sit in a tank outside the cap radius and rack up the kills on those?

Let's try to make more stupid rules that are completely not enforceable in PR.

**Sabre_Tooth_Tigger** · 04-23-2008, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by snooggums

Those are the old vanilla rules that also applied to POE2 and Tacmod. We really only need to follow the new shiny and 100% snooggums approved new PR rule sticky in this forum as they cover everything needed.

Ok its not specifically mentioned but I think it applies under this:

players should avoid at all costs utilizing a feature of the game as an exploit to gain an advantage over their opponents

**Bisclaveret** · 04-23-2008, 11:23 PM

First... If you can't take it out yourself, there's nothing stopping you from bringing in support from another squad, close air support, etc. I never said anything about just plainly ignoring it and leaving it and not telling anyone. Notify up the chain of command that there's stuff going down and have them have someone else deal with it if you can't.

Second... The argument isn't about killing people spawning in as you're going to kill the rally/bunker/etc, or collateral damage from placing explosives on it and being caught in the explosion as you spawn. Those suck, but are unavoidable. I'm talking about a calculated camping of a spawnpoint when you can't possibly take it out by yourself (or don't want to). This, like the original rules stated, infers a clear intent. Instead of depriving the enemy of a spawnpoint, you're deciding to kill them and take thier tickets when they can't defend themselves.

Within Tactical Gamer, ANY activity that capitalizes on the limitations of a game to provide the advantage rather than that advantage coming from superior teamwork, strategy and tactics, is frowned upon. We all want to win when we play, but the focus at Tactical Gamer should be one of winning with some sort of dignity, honor, and skill, not because you were able to out-exploit the other team or box them into a corner built on technological weakness that gives you the advantage.

Tactical Gamer requires teamwork because only through working as a team can we complete the objectives we are assigned. The reward for winning through superior strategy and tactics is far greater than the reward for winning through exploitation and oppression.

Using your own example, how easy is it to sit a tank near a bunker or enemy rally and continously pop at the enemy as they spawn in, instead of actively trying to take it down? I see no difference between that and attacking a spawnpoint on a vanilla or POE map. Both confer intent not to capture or destroy but to rack up kills/score.

**snooggums** · 04-23-2008, 11:53 PM

I had to camp a firebase for 10 minutes before an opportunity to destroy it came up as an engineer. Was I waiting too long? I moved in as soon as I could since people kept respawning, I finally rushed in when only one person spawned.

Did I get a lot of kills? Yes.

Did I neutralize the entire threat by suppressing a spawn point by myself? Yes.

Did I spawncamp? No, it was a built structure and not their main.

If the other team did this would I say they were spawncamping? No, because forward spawns don't count for spawn camping in PR. In PR the rally is more important than the kills, flags are more important than the kills, kills only matter on four hour maps or if defenders of a flag are killed. In vanilla kills mattered, that's why they had the spawncamping rules. We have the main spawncamping rules because that is the one place you can safely spawn. That's the only place you can safely spawn, the rest is open for business.

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