Re: Squad Leaders, or lack thereof...

**Katanama** · 09-26-2008, 12:23 PM

If you want to learn a bit about squadleading take hold of someone on teamspeak. Ask him to join your squad and give feedback on what you are doing. Dont do this over teamchat/VoiP but use some unpopulated TS channel. I have done this once, I do not know if he learned anything from it but I had a great time. If anyone is interested give me a call. I dont think you can learn to SL in a TGU class. the reason there are no unpredictable factors and you dont really have an ingame environment. Not to say that TGU classes dont work just that I dont think they are applicable to this subject.

IHS members should get to play with each other, they are not there to cater for your needs. They are there to play a game that they enjoy with people they like to play with.

I switch sides once in a while because there are some people on the other team that I like to play with. Thats not because I want to be in there squad but because I like their company, as in they are good fun. I sometimes switch sides because I want to SL alongside another good SL like charity or disposable because we might get some good coordination going since that makes the job of squadleading so much more fun.

Originally Posted by BigGaayAl

lso it is very important to kick people that do not follow the project you have set. I find the worst squadmembers are veteran players that don't follow orders. Often you will know them so it is harder to politely kick them without stepping on some toes. They are good, but they are soooo irritating. You have a duty imo to kick bad apples. The duty is is towards your squadmembers.

So true. I probably do this myself but I agree the worst is having someone that is used to being the leader join your squad. They are used to being able to do as they please and just act in the same way in your squad. I once kicked a guy from my squad. He is one of the first guys that I learned the name of when I came to TG and he taught me alot about leading a squad.

EDIT: We all need a babysitter once in a while thats why we have admins around.

**NerdyDodge** · 09-26-2008, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Masterjack

Now on another note the 15th is reorganizing and training. Once we get ourselves sorted out we plan on passing on our training and expertise to others on a regular basis. More details to follow on this in the near future.

Buried at the bottom of Masterjack's post, so I'll highlight this once again. We in the 15th recognise our own tendacy to fall in with our own traditional squad leaders, to the point that many, including myself, have stopped stepping up regularly. This is going to change, we'll be fielding more squads, each comprised of a majority of public members and fewer XV grunts.

Hopefully in this way, we'll open up a few more good squads for prospective SL's to learn from. Even if this is not the case, we'll have another 4-8 spaces for the SM's who feel the need to be babysitted!

**FFLaguna** · 09-26-2008, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Superfast

Have we considered maybe doing more PR TGU SL courses? Perhaps that will make people more confident about SL'ing?

I would sign up for that in a heartbeat.

**Googol** · 09-26-2008, 01:27 PM

The first time I started squad leading I did horribly, it was a depressing show of play on my part. However, as I did it more, I became better to a point where I am comfortable leading an infantry squad now and then. I encourage you all to try it no matter how badly you might do. I also support a PR SL TGU course, I'm sure many people would learn quiet alot. Perhaps this can also be a topic for one of the strategy and tactics discussion on some saturdays.

**<1sk>Headshot** · 09-26-2008, 01:32 PM

There's more to it than people simply not wanting to stepup, the game has become so much more complex with the last two releases not least from taking away SL spawning. It seems every change made is a complete hamper to a squad that doesn't have veteran squadmembers or people with a lot of knowledge we take for granted like holding your spawn when you don't have a suitable spawn point up to meet up with your squad on joining and other simple things. Now you really need a competent squad if you want to get something done effectively, that or the patience of a saint.

Before it was pretty easy to get by with a squad that wasn't so experienced because everything was so much simpler: assets, vehicles, kits etc. Now as Al touched on, most of the very players who can help you achieve this seem to like doing what they want and questioning your every decision, this just isn't helpful, especially for new players who don't necessarily feel comfortable ordering more experienced players to do something they disagree with.

In short my point is.. Joining an unfamiliar/new squadleader who seems to be having difficultly with whatever:

don't: be condescending, disagree with every order, think you can go of on your own because he SL doesn't have it in him to boot your ass.

do: offer helpful tips, offer tactical advice, follow orders.

If people simply did this we'd see a lot of new SLs here.

**FFLaguna** · 09-26-2008, 01:39 PM

http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f143...eader-tactics/ <--- Great resource for the Squad Leader aspirer

Delta*RandyShugart* · 09-26-2008, 01:44 PM

I agree with all of the posts Skuds original post, but one really stood out, it was the initial post to start off this thread.

People "expect" IHS member for the most part to teach them how to be an SL or to be an SL, this isn't necessarily always a good thing.

Why not making a squad and trying it, or as others have said get on teamspeak or even in Team Chat and say "Hey I am going to start a squad and would one or two members here like to join my squad if they already are not planning on being in another person's squad to teach me some pointers?"

I think players get to comfortable expecting others to SL, when in reality IHS member's don't always want to be an SL. And I have to disagree IHS members are not always in Locked Squads, I have seen plenty of 3 man CAS locked squads, or transport locked squads lately more than IHS locked squads.

I have to agree with google, when i first started I was horrible, or if you find a different word in the thesaurus, please put it in.

I still am learning new things, but like the old saying is "if you fall off the bike, get back on it."

I would love to see more players on this server stepping of to be an SL, whether they are a TG tag wearer or not, I think we all get comfortable with normalcy, and with what the map looks like, and what assets are there.

I would also like to see SL's of assets, not wait at the main base on certain maps for those assets to spawn, but instead take the intiative and cap a flag/set a rally, build a fb, and get into the action rather than waiting at the main for the asset because you want it and since there is no commander you and your squad might not get it.

SL'ing isn't about setting rallies, and assigning kits, those are 2 aspects of it, but it is about informing your squad members on what positions to take, letting them know what the orders are that you have set forth or what the commander has set forth, it is about being a leader, and at the same time communicating with them and also being able to listen to their suggestions if a situation warrants it.

It is also about having patience, and being able to communicate under fire, or in a stressful situation and setting an example on the server for not only your squad but for the other players on that server on and in the PR community.

Same thing goes for squad members, though you might not be the SL you still are setting an example that others will see.

and i might be crying wolf here, but whats with 2 locked 2 man squads? If you are an SL at least get one more player so you can set a rally point, all snipers die at somepoint, or run out of ammo, or die trying to run out of ammo.......but please do not take this last part this last part is just a small rant that i feel does fit in with what skud and others are trying to convey.

* I also don't know why people gripe when IHS squad members squad up together a lot or lock their squads, non-IHS members do this ALL the time, more than IHS do, i think that calling IHS members out on this is a load of BS. Maybe its jealousy to some degree or another, maybe its just me but sometimes its nice to see IHS members in one squad, thats partly what joining a IHS is all about, you get to squad up with people you enjoy playing with, whats wrong with that?

I mean i see lots of non IHS members, many with TG tags in locked squads all the time.......yet no one cries about that.....

I think TG as a whole has plenty of SL's I really do, i don't see a lack of SL's, but I see people taking advantage sometimes of something that doesn't necessarily belong to them. And I only hope that those who decide to wear the TG tag really know what it stands for, and use it all the time as an example, because you are choosing to wear that tag, and in doing that you are setting an example, on the TG server and on other servers where you use it.

I also hope to see some new faces commanding, because now, commanding is the easiest thing to do, and anyone can do it, thats what i really look forward in seeing.

Anyways I had to include these last few sentences.

**Belhade** · 09-26-2008, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by kevlarorc

After an hour or two of this my mind begins to numb and I find myself playing like an SM (wanting to try insanely foolish tactics just for the hell of it) although I suppose if I do it enough I will get more used to it.

There's nothing to prevent you from doing this as an SL. You really should try things like this out with a squad (as long as they're nominally following your lead) as you might find the next great map-killing strategy.

You don't always have to follow the flags every round (unless that's what your CO is ordering). Branch out and look for new ways to make your squad effective. Find new ways to perform objectives: Don't sit everyone on a flag to defend; instead send half the squad out to sweep the perimeter. Or hold a key area while another friendly squad is attacking a flag to prevent reinforcements from coming through. I will often run interdiction missions through neutral areas of a map to disrupt enemy movements.

**Tyson7777** · 09-26-2008, 03:46 PM

I am learning to lead far better on TG and would say to anyone wanting a crack at SL'ing - this is definately the server to cut your teeth on.

I started by setting up a few specialist support squads on maps like Kashan as either supples or repairs and progressed through to running a few defensive minded squads protecting key objectives on other maps.

The biggest tip I can give a new SL especially on TG is to be decisive whilst also courting the opinion of any experienced members of the squad. Get that balance right and you will soon have people returning to your squad the next round which for me is the ultimate compliment.

And a message to anyone joining one of my squads (usually called MG)- feel free to offer tips and input.

**Charity Case** · 09-26-2008, 04:03 PM

I just want to say that I'm really impressed with everyone's responses and delighted that we're talking about this issue.

In response to the OP, I think it's unfair to blame this leadership situation on non-In-House Squad members. There are five primary IHSes (Irregulars, 10th, 6th, 15th, and E-1st) involved in PR and they tend to monopolize the leadership by recruiting veteran players. The fact that some IHS members form locked squads and primarily game with their fellow members doesn't help matters either. Sure, IHS members shouldn't be expected to lead all the time, and they certainly have the right to game with their squad mates whenever they want; but I don't they should complain when other players fail to step up. PR has the steepest learning curve of any game I've ever played, and squad leader is one of the most complex roles. So it's no surprise that TG regulars (and many others) are intimidated by the responsibility of this role... and now I have to go to class. More on this later.

**AREM117** · 09-26-2008, 05:28 PM

While playing yesterday I commanded a round in Kashan 16. The SLs on my team were overall very good at taking orders, taking initiative and getting tasks done. Our transport squads were also very effective at giving air support when needed. This round ended in capping the MEC main and was one of the best rounds I've commanded in 0.8.

If the SL can take orders from the CO and use good judgment when giving orders to the squad then they should have an easier time leading. The SMs must also always follow the reasonable orders of the SL, if they dont then they should be kicked making room for someone who will follow better. If the chain of command is in place and used correctly than leading is much easier for any Squad Leader.

**creepin** · 09-26-2008, 05:32 PM

i always squadlead on weekends, usually when i come home from school at 5PM there's not enough brainjuice left to be a motivating and competent SL.

**Waldo_II** · 09-26-2008, 05:41 PM

I agree completely with this post. Back in the days before I became a supporting member, I would always wait until someone with |TG| or |TGXX| tags opened a squad. I always had a better experience with them than with other squad leaders. I still do this occasionally today. I don't deny it. If I see Charity is on the team and is not yet in a squad, I will sometimes wait until he makes a squad so I can join it. I have never had a cruddy round with him as my squad leader, and I always try to learn from him so my squads can be more successful.

I'm trying to lead squads more often, but a lot of times I'm just not in the mood. When I do make squads, I will start out locked, see if there are any other fifteenth members on the team, invite them, and then unlock.

Originally Posted by Skud

It's gotten to the point where I flat out lie to certain players to try to keep them out of my squads

I'm guilty of this too. I won't say any names, but there has been more than one occasion where I tell a player that I am waiting for someone else. Then I ask the other people in my squad who I should invite. If I don't invite someone, then I look like an incredible douche and that person who I tried to keep out of my squad is insulted. Even though I don't want them in my squad, I still respect them enough to not want to insult them.

**Alpha_s9** · 09-26-2008, 08:18 PM

I think a lot of it has to do with people that try to be an SL, and then get their chops busted by their team. Constructive criticism is one thing, but that's pretty rare. Most of the time it's OMG YOU SUCK or worse. That probably goes a long way towards making someone not want to be an SL often enough to get the experience they need to be truly effective at it.

My mentality on this has changed over the versions. When I first started playing PR I was almost always playing as an SL because I couldn't stand being in a squad with an SL who "didn't know what they were doing". You know, the guy that runs halfway across the map then asks why he can't place a rally while in the engineer kit.

As time progressed and teamplay has become more and more critical to winning, I now find myself not being an SL as much. I think that my value as a competent squad mate, ready to back up the SL in his decisions, is worth more to the team than an SL who has to teach his mates while leading them and working with the CO and the rest of the team. Some people are good at that, but I'm not one of them. I'm also not nearly as qualified to SL as some people. I'm still in the process of learning where and where not to place FOBs, remembering things like not trying to build within 400m of another one... etc.

I would normally rather play against the IHS on TG just because it's always more interesting, and you can learn a lot. At the same time, I don't want to be one of the 3 regulars on the other team. (This goes back to everyone jumping ship to get on the same team as an IHS)

Yesterday I signed onto the server, and I swear it was like 28 TG tagged people on one team and absolutely no one that I had ever seen before on the other team. I started a squad to try and get off to a good start, but the lack of discipline... in the face of the awesomeness of a well oiled regulars squad... proved to be more than I could handle. After about two rounds I dropped.

Keep in mind that this wasn't a group of pubbers goofing off... it was just a group of people who weren't in the mindset of get in and get it done fast. They didn't realize the storm that was coming, so to speak. The time it takes to get those kind of people organized and ready to go is more than enough to kill a team when they're face to face with the "pros".

**Wicks** · 09-26-2008, 09:05 PM

I agree with a lot of what has been said here apart from one blatant untruth!

"Here's the problem: They make one squad. And they lock it. So no pubbies, no SLs, nothing.

I would just be nice to see IHS members make a squad and keep it open once.. I hear them saying how they'll teach you etc. when you're in their squad, but that involves getting in said locked squad. Very Rare.

Pretty much the only time Ive seen it unlocked is after the round has gone in about 5 min (and people already have a plan with another squad etc.) or when they leave. Which defeats the purpose."

I am sorry but this is patently untrue, when precisely does this happen, this is just a blatant attempt to hijack a thread and bash IHS players. Charity runs open squads, Nardini, Dirtboy, Zaboo and myself all run open squads. I do sometimes lock my squads, often at the request of non IHS players who played the last round and want another go at it. I do this as part of the idea of fostering teamwork. Now and again we run 6th squads because we are allowed to, we all do our bit and actually enjoy playing with all players on the server. We are also within our rights to play together occasionally, that was the point I was making. The point of this thread as I see it is to encourage NEW players to step up and squad lead!

"Make a squad and keep it open once", that comment is so wide of the mark and unjustified it is untrue.

Now thats cleared up, lets get back on topic about how we can encourage new squad leaders instead of posting misinformed, inaccurate attempts at bashing the squad leaders we currently have.

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