Re: Stacking Teams. Revived in .85

**Alpha_s9** · 02-13-2009, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jeepo_SAS

@Alpha, I understand your frustration with this issue, a lot of people are. I think the solution is TS. Either get organised or die. Thats it. What else is there?

Ollie, I understand your idea mate, but if I am only going to get 1 hours play in tonight, I want to be damned sure it is with my mates in their squad, and not some random who I have never played with before. They may be just as good, or better, but the point of IHS's are to play together with your friends. So randomising the teams could be hard. And then there is the TS issue with channels and players who will be in the wrong one, or guys who can't alt-tab out. Also, people will find a way to complain about it, because they ever got to be US for 3 rounds and didn't get the chopperz.

TS does no good when you join and there are 20 people in coord 1 and 3(all of which are in the same squad) in coord 2... unless you're supposed to be in coord 1 i guess.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 02-13-2009, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by ollie_fool

I have not been involved in these discussions before as i have no strong opinions on the issue, however i have found a solutuion, which is hopefully going to be discussed by the admins and might be implemented in the future pending an admin desicion.

It is simply to enable the BF2CC option to randomize the teams at the end of each round, rather than swapping them, this would essentially eliminate the problems as well as that of people switching several rounds before a match to be on a certain team.

As i have psoted in the admin forums i would like to get the opinion of the TG Comunnity about this so please post any concerns or ideas and i will try to get some constructive responses going when i get back next sunday.

Ollie

I can see where this can be helpful, but i can also see where this isn't really an admin issue.

For example, Late Wed after a valient effort the team i was on lost again, and during no time did anyone on the team I was on or on TS complain of teamstacking. The next round was Ramiel, in TS (both TS channels were in use btw, with ample players in both the Coordination channels and the leadership channels) there were already talks about who was going to command for the US side and who was going to use a stryker and provide infantry support.

Ramiel was the first round that evening (it ended at 1:20 am Feb 12th) that the US was victorious, and like i just mentioned above there were no in game chat posts of team stacking whatsoever.

The point that i am trying to make is that, the admins shouldn't get involved, it isn't an admin problem, and randomizing each round will only lead to more people switching sides, because some will feel that why should they have to play twice on the chinese side, or as an insurgent etc.......That could lead to more team switching than was intended.

It really comes down to people stepping up to the plate and going as CO, being a SL and promoting teamwork, unlocking your 3 man squad, or 4 man squad instructing players, setting down ground rules and your objectives. It is also getting players on TS, trying to get players to work as a team etc, and remember I have posted this in other threads and others especially admins have mentioned this that if you wish to be switched to the other side you will, if you have a squad, or if your IHS members wish to play as one on the other side on a round you may asked to be switched and it will happen.

Stepping up to the plate as Commander is really very important and IMHO (i have been an advocate of this since i first learned way back in .6 i believe to CO from AFSoccer, Dirtboy, D1sposable, nardini, fuzzhead etc) the real way to get a team organized especially in .85. There you have full view of the battlefield and can communicate with Squad leaders and work as a team, twice now I have stepped up when there was a sense of chaos, and other members of community have done the same, and the results have been very postive. Plus you weed out the players who don't wish to contribute to the overall situation and those players are then forced to realize that TG is based on Maturity, teamwork and respect, or they leave or they act in ways that deem them to be reported and warned, kicked or in extreme circumstance banned.

Promote the server, mention the website, mentor new players, just don't sit back and put your hands up and give up. If you want to complain keep it to yourself, no use in spamming the TS chat, or global or team chat, remember if you do that you are making a conscience effort that you can't take back, plus its really immature and really effing annoying.

**Doro9** · 02-13-2009, 03:03 PM

I believe I was on Exakter's team a few rounds last night and while not being in the same squad as him I can definately say I was just as frusterated as he. Someone pointed out that the team on the "other" side often doesnt have a CO, players using sniping kits on maps like Ghost Train, no TS coordination, ect. I agree, the frustration comes when the majority of the team has no intention of playing the game that way. When its obvious one team is committed to playing the "TG" way and the other side is full of guys who think they are playing vBF2 then it is very frusterating.

I'm not voicing my opinion in complaint but just to encourage some of the "pros" to unlock their elite squads and show others how to really run a team. I feel I learned a lot about PR buy joining squads ran by some of the better squad leaders in the TG community. I'm still relatively new to PR and dont consider myself a pro but have military experience and when I feel its needed I create my own squad trying to guide others........haha in PR it is harder to convey your orders/ideas than in real life.

**ollie_fool** · 02-13-2009, 03:05 PM

As i said, it is a discussion, not an implementation, so here are a few more thoughts,

Originally Posted by ollie_fool

. It will simply be luck if you dont get swapped, but it will be different the next round, i think people would get used to it, as for ingame i think it would be simple to go the same way we do with the supporting member script, i.e. we have a set message for example , The Teams are randomized at the end of each game, please do not ask to be switched by the admins etc.

A couple more issues i have thought of ;

> Team co-ord channels, having to change channel every round may be difficult for some, but i think if we renamed the channels to Opfor/Blufor and asked people to just take a little effort to change channel, or have an admin move them, whcih isnt exactly a hard task, we could have them request it ingame? Maybe use the bf2cc monitor to pickup a keyword, e.g. Channelswap, and post this in the teamspeak SOP's.This would hopefully solve that issue. EDIT; as draeh says key binds could be used to solve this issue very easily.

> Organisation, as it is, you get 3 minutes to prepare, which is fine for a public game, with switching TS channel this may reduce to 2 minutes depending on load time, however this is still generally enough time, i find myself sitting silently for 1 minute - 30 seconds in any normal game.

Another Pro ;

> Having the randomize enabled would hopefully put good squad leaders on each side, this would mean that both teams would be able to get competent leadership, and would hopefuly lead to a more challenging and organised game.

@ randy, i agree that getting good leadership is crucial in 0.85, and part of the idea of randomization was that it will spread around the players that are willing to command, rather than having them on the same team each round.

It also becomes an admin problem when people complain on the server and in forums, it makes our lives harder as we have to deal with it, hence i think it would be good to find a permentant solution.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 02-13-2009, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by WDT_Alpha_s9

TS does no good when you join and there are 20 people in coord 1 and 3(all of which are in the same squad) in coord 2... unless you're supposed to be in coord 1 i guess.

^^False.

I bet you that if you mention to your team and see regulars who frequent TS, they will join the channel you are in, or go in the leadership channels.

TS is an added bonus, its a little easter egg within the TG community that allows you to have access to a different way of communication, it is free of charge, you don't have to be a supporting member to use it, you just have to have the interest.

For those who might not be aware of which channel is which here is a quick intro to TS on the Project Reality Server:

Project Reality Public Channel: Open to everyone, and serves as a way to talk to other players who at the time are loading up, not playing or have chose not to be in a specified channel but still have TS loaded up so if they choose they can hop down to the appropriate channel. Players from both sides are in this channel and can talk to each other regarding topics not associated with the map being played.

- Asad is up, and it is the Brits (Team One) Vs. MEC (Team Two)

PR Leadership 1: Only Squad Leaders and the Commander of Team One use this channel as a way to talk to each other and also alert the CO if they need to, or for a way for the CO to cut the chatter between squads and talk directly to SLs.

PR Leadership 2: Only Squad Leaders and the Commander of Team Two use this channel as a way to talk to each other and also alert the CO if they need to, or for a way for the CO to cut the chatter between squads and talk directly to SLs. At time Armor and helicopter/Jet pilots and crewman are in this channel to coordinate also

PR Coordination 1: Squad members of Team One (and at times SL's) of Team One use this channel to talk and give heads up to one another and intel that can then be sent to the SL and to the CO etc.....

PR Coordination 2: Squad members of Team Two (and at times SL's) of Team One use this channel to talk and give heads up to one another and intel that can then be sent to the SL and to the CO etc.....

There you go, that's a general definition of using TS on the TG PR Server.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 02-13-2009, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by ollie_fool

It also becomes an admin problem when people complain on the server and in forums, it makes our lives harder as we have to deal with it, hence i think it would be good to find a permentant solution.

Is there a test that can be handed out/permission slip for those players under the age of 18 (and some who are over the age of 18)? Which has to be signed by a parent, guardian, or wife, and which subjects the person to public ridicule if they cannot fathom the simple idea of playing as a team and not joining a squad getting a kit and leaving a squad, or automatically feeling they are entitled to use armor however they want and fly around however they want even if the continually crash helicopters, abandoning logistic and support trucks and costing tickets which under regular, normal circumstances would have never been lost in the first place.

Or that those who complain publicly, and abusively while in game are kicked/banned, or those who complain on the forums actually post adequate responses on how to combat this situation or if they don't want to release it publicly they can PM an admin?

I still stand by my original stance that there is not a so called "Team Stacking" problem on the TG PR Server. And I have come to the realization and strongly feel that this so called "problem" isn't an admin issue, and it shouldn't be, because it takes away from what being a BF2 Admin is all about. Admins are not supposed to micro manage the server and by randomizing each round is a form of micro managing it, even if it is not intended to be. Nor do i know/suspect that the BF2 admins wish to Micro Manage the server - I am not being negative Ollie just giving a general statement from my POV.

Plus I also feel that the BF2 Admins are not given enough credit in PR as of late.

In many cases they are taken for granted. Recently regulars haven't been reporting players properly, haven't been saying thank you if their !Reporting is resolved or if their question is answered and have really been relying on the BF2 PR Admins to automatically see everything since BF2CC supposedly now comes with its own hard drive and screen and is actually an admins personal UAV to the action that is happening during the round. (it doesn't come with its own hard drive and doesn't act as a personal UAV but i hope you see what i am getting at)

Remember all the admins both on the forums and in game here at TG volunteer their time and they don't automatically tell the script to just kick players from one side so they can then complete their objective of global PR Domination.

Wanted to just also point that out..........Cut them some slack, give them a pat on the back and a golf clap.

**commie2008** · 02-13-2009, 03:27 PM

Exater you say you are not complaining but you clearly are, because you have to just say things. You also "complained" had your say about the late night quality on |TG| which even I acknowledge is an issue, prior to playing during what I consider to be normal hourse I used to play during what onemanwreckingcrew has called "circus hour". However in the same thread you have admitted to only playing on |TG| for a month, unless I read that wrong. While teamstacking has been considered a plague on this server by many other(s), i.e. the pelethora of threads in that sticky, you really should play on the server more and see in the long run things tend to even out. If you can't stand the fact that your team is constantly demoralized because it's getting their ass hand to them everytime then just take a break, go play another game, or like you say you already are be more proactive and step up to take more of a leadership role. Convince other people to join TeamSpeak which others have said is a tool provided for all players in the |TG| community as long as they register on the forums. You don't necessarily have to become the CO for your team to win but you can try your damnedest to make other(s) follow your lead. I could say more but a lot of people have covered it.

**Portable.Cougar** · 02-13-2009, 03:34 PM

I am so good I single handedly stack a team.

Sounds concided but its true.

I get on with 2 other 10th members. At this point the teams are even. I then organise some SL's. Get teamspeak going in a leadership mannor. Take point with my squad of 6. Lead the charge in to the enemys flags / main.

In doing this my score is usually fairly high, and I win (sorry, im better than you). Seeing my winning ability, and how organised TS is on my team, people switch to my side. They do it at round start as well as mid round. More of them join in on my TS channels. Thus my team becomes more powerfull.

What do I do about it? I get the new people on the power curve. I get them out front leading. We work on their contact reports and get them thinking teamwork.

Then it happens.

We become so powerfull that we are dubed "mega-stack". Once formed we are a unbreakable chain of bad ass ness. Never to be defeated by mear "non-TG'ers".

You may ask or wonder, "does he do this on purpose"

The teamwork part? Yes
The organasation part? yes
The leadership part? yes
Intentionaly bringing terror and discorse down on his enemy? Yes

Stacking the team on purpose? no

I will edit out the spelling errors later. Sorry Im not better at it.

**Paine** · 02-13-2009, 03:35 PM

Firstly, yes I have read the sticky. I do use search (I moderate a gaming board, so yea).

Now the nitty gritty. If you respond to discussions of the hot word "teamstacking" with -

"stop complaining"
"man up when you get beaten"
"it isn't true"

Likewise, if you respond with -

"IHS are all hypocrites with regards to the TG mission statement"
"This happens ALL THE TIME"
"I've never teamswitched"

Then you are not being very honest with yourself and others, or you haven't given it much thought/have not been paying attention.

Before I talk about what i believe should be done about this problem, we need to establish that something needs to be done. I assert that close games are more fun than blowouts. Something needs to be done about team stacking, as it results in blowouts.

Now, putting things in perspective I played on the "Blackwater" server last night after 6 rounds of hell on TG, and then realized what hell was.

The team had only one working inf squad on Feluja West setting rallies and gathering intel. The Bradlys were all lost in the first 5m because they ran them right onto the most obvious place for IEDs, I watched them explode, my chat warnings falling on deaf ears. APCs were used as tanks, and more often then not one-manned. As I could not get into the working Inf squad, and No one was joining my Inf squad (I connected just after everyone spawned first) I lone wolfed with my loved and cherished M16A4 Iron Sights medic kit. By the end of the round, I was 30-10 KD with two caches destroyed, solo. That tells you how horrible the other side was.

I draw this stark comparison to mind because it is importent to point out the general quality of the gameplay experience on TG. It is simply the best in PR, and that is why I will not be withdrawing my SM anytime soon.

The quality of the playerbase is what we have to tap to fix the teamstacking problem, because it is TGs greatest asset. Not admins being little Kim Jung-Ils, Not Squad leaders being little Stonewall Jacksons, and certainly not commanders being little McArthers; but the player base.

If you see two rounds in a row where your team completely decimates the opposition, switch teams, make your own decision because it is the right thing to do considering TGs mission statement. An entire IHS or regular squad would be preferable. I fore see, in some distant utopia, a SL saying something along the lines of "that was way too easy, lets all switch teams".

Originally Posted by Portable.Cougar

I am so good I single handedly stack a team.

Sounds concided but its true.

I get on with 2 other 10th members. At this point the teams are even. I then organise some SL's. Get teamspeak going in a leadership mannor. Take point with my squad of 6. Lead the charge in to the enemys flags / main.

In doing this my score is usually fairly high, and I win (sorry, im better than you). Seeing my winning ability, and how organised TS is on my team, people switch to my side. They do it at round start as well as mid round. More of them join in on my TS channels. Thus my team becomes more powerfull.

What do I do about it? I get the new people on the power curve. I get them out front leading. We work on their contact reports and get them thinking teamwork.

Then it happens.

We become so powerfull that we are dubed "mega-stack". Once formed we are a unbreakable chain of bad ass ness. Never to be defeated by mear "non-TG'ers".

You may ask or wonder, "does he do this on purpose"

The teamwork part? Yes
The organasation part? yes
The leadership part? yes
Intentionaly bringing terror and discorse down on him enemy? Yes

Stacking the team on purpose? no

I will edit out the spelling errors later. Sorry Im not better at it.

LoL at our little McArther

grats on 1k posts.

Originally Posted by Jeepo_SAS

Paine was being extremely disrespectful in the way he complained in global chat about his SL. So yeah, I told him to shut up and get on with it.

*takes a breath and counts to ten*

The event you describe simply did not happen. I was my own SL most of that round, and the rest Exakter was my SL. I would never talk in global about team leadership, negatively or otherwise. I did, however, say something in Archer along the lines of

"there should be rules in the game code that prevent caches from spawning on FOBs."
and "4/6 of my squad members didn't know what the hell they were doing."

i.e. grabbing HAT kits and sniper kits and no one coming medic, not following move/build orders, only 1 of 5 communicating with me at all, 3 of them getting knifed because all 5 were covering the same sector.

This influx of new players is, as many of you have surmised, the result of .85s release coupled with the recognition of PR on battlefield2.com's main page. I don't mind new players. One of the best squads I have ever led was with squad members I had never worked with before. What I do mind are players that do not use the tools provided them, ie squad communication, their brains, the use of language. When half of your team is made up of those sort, with four or five regulars, against the other team with four or five non-regulars as was the case on Jabal last night, then It becomes something of a "no contest" as at least we know Cougar figured out.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 02-13-2009, 03:57 PM

I taught Portable.Cougar everything he knows.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 02-13-2009, 04:01 PM

Its too bad the web designers/those in charge of updating the EA Battlefield 2 website don't know how to use the internet. They are only 2.5 updates behind, i'm just glad they spelled project reality right.

http://www.battlefield.ea.com/battle...&storyid=14033

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 02-13-2009, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Portable.Cougar

I am so good I single handedly stack a team.

Sounds concided but its true.

I get on with 2 other 10th members. At this point the teams are even. I then organise some SL's. Get teamspeak going in a leadership mannor. Take point with my squad of 6. Lead the charge in to the enemys flags / main.

In doing this my score is usually fairly high, and I win (sorry, im better than you). Seeing my winning ability, and how organised TS is on my team, people switch to my side. They do it at round start as well as mid round. More of them join in on my TS channels. Thus my team becomes more powerfull.

What do I do about it? I get the new people on the power curve. I get them out front leading. We work on their contact reports and get them thinking teamwork.

Then it happens.

We become so powerfull that we are dubed "mega-stack". Once formed we are a unbreakable chain of bad ass ness. Never to be defeated by mear "non-TG'ers".

You may ask or wonder, "does he do this on purpose"

The teamwork part? Yes
The organasation part? yes
The leadership part? yes
Intentionaly bringing terror and discorse down on his enemy? Yes

Stacking the team on purpose? no

I will edit out the spelling errors later. Sorry Im not better at it.

+rep

why? because if you read past the sarcasm there is some really good advice in there

**TurkishDelight** · 02-13-2009, 04:21 PM

Paine, although I can't quote you word for word, there were a few times where you GLOBALLY berated your squad members. That is a quitter's attitude and the thinking of a loser. Basically the makings of an Ultra-Fail!

Don't believe me? Take a course or two on Physc

I get pissed off quite frequently while playing PR as of late, but I never complain of tEaMsTazKROING!!1. I say "Wow they kicked our butts! That was a good job!", and reflect on what we could have done differently. It's all mindset.

**Paine** · 02-13-2009, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by TurkishDelight

Paine, although I can't quote you word for word, there were a few times where you GLOBALLY berated your squad members. That is a quitter's attitude and the thinking of a loser. Basically the makings of an Ultra-Fail!

Don't believe me? Take a course or two on Physc

I get pissed off quite frequently while playing PR as of late, but I never complain of tEaMsTazKROING!!1. I say "Wow they kicked our butts! That was a good job!", and reflect on what we could have done differently. It's all mindset.

You don't have to quote me word for word, I did it myself in my post, which you obviously did not read given your only comment was on the flame via Jeepo. No one in my squad could read chat, or respond to voice, considering my frustration at the time I figured it was fine. This is all beside the point of this thread. Respond to something substantial so we can have a discussion.

"they kicked out buts, what can we do better" is essentially what we are talking about here. They kicked our butts for 6 rounds in a row because of, gasp, hot botton word, teamstacking. I have been on the winning side and I find it to be just as boring/ a waste of my time (which is why I am often one of the few regulars on the losing side). A slim loss is more fun than a large win in my book. Stop representing my attitudes falsely please.

I don't like that word "teamstacking" actually, because it is not an accurate representation of what occurs. No one goes in thinking "hey lets make tonight really boring and get all the competent players on one side" It's more fluid; Cougar's assessment of the causes of "teamstacking" is fair methinks.

That does not, however, go to fixing the problem. Read my bold in the above post for what i think the solution is.

**Rtoups** · 02-13-2009, 04:42 PM

I was playing all night and was on the team that was delivering the rapeage. I was constantly checking the player lists, and I don't really recall seeing to much teamswitching. And here is the reason: When Qinling arrived, the server emptied, and so it just happened that a few regulars got on the same team. The same team that Wreckingcrew, Namebot, Spitfire, myself, and many other regulars had been on for a few rounds previous. I also remember that there was absolutely FANTASTIC teamwork. I distinctly remember Kabal loading and hearing Cougar say "Okay, we need to organize and hit this place hard and fast". From there, platoons were made and decisions about where each platoon would go were relayed to the chopper pilots. The pilots were fantastic, dropping us off exactly where needed. The first ten minutes went rather flawlessly.

On the other hand, by the time we had capped dam, the other team hadn't even gotten Bridge. There's a difference between teamstacking and teamwork. We had the latter, the other team didn't.

It also looked like some of us were just having a good night. I was having a fantastic one. The end of Archer (I was insurgents) saw me with 17 kills and 4 deaths, and at the end of Kabal, I racked up 4 kills and survived the entire round (Silly Savage and I have a cool story to tell about that). I was just feelin it that night. I don't know how else to explain it.

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