Re: Lessons in .85: Things to Pack

**RustyBandSaw** · 02-17-2009, 05:06 AM

I had always thought WHOREHOUSE would be a better name.

**LoveSkylark** · 02-17-2009, 05:59 AM

What has changed so much for you from 8.0 to 8.5 that goes further from reality?

Can you back your opinion up by facts and logic instead of slogans?

**sapientiea** · 02-17-2009, 06:27 AM

Euhh well you are indeed entitled to your own opinion, but i dont understand why you complain about teamwork?
In the most simple game you can have teamwork and enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it anymore you can just go and play an other game simple like that. No body is holding a gun to your head and forces you to play PR right?

It has no value what so ever to addres your dislike of PR 0.85 in this manner, especially if you're trying to create a discussion, if that is what you are trying to begin with.

**NerdyDodge** · 02-17-2009, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by A.WICKENS

"I've come to the realization that what most everything I (and other players using logic and reasoning) say will fall upon deaf ears- deaf from denial"

I think phrases like that at the opening of a statment are perhaps what gets everyone's backs up, reeks of arrogance, which may or may not be 'tongue in cheek' depending on your knowledge of the poster. I am sorry but if you want to post threads like that, well here's the news its a forum, I am actually a bit peeved at the condescending tone taken by some telling people how they can respond. People will always have a reaction to a thread like that about something they are invested in. Why should the reader have to measure their response and consider the consequence when the original poster apparently does not have to. Apparently posting in these forums is becoming a bit of a one way street where only some people are allowed to be controversial.

I couldn't have put that better myself, Wickens.

**bjoffe** · 02-17-2009, 10:21 AM

I liked alot of what 0.85 brought along, but you're right about the inf mechanics.
Suppression is of no use anymore, and the "medic exploitive" gameplay is absolutely horrifying.

Originally Posted by HellHound1812

And it's obvious you've never seen us play prior to .85. We used 6 medics, no SL because our old (successful) tactics from .8 were completely useless in .85. We learned quickly after having our asses handed to us on Ghost Train by Cougar and friends. The following night, we used 6 medics with no SL to get a clean sweep of 80+kills and 4 deaths on Mestia, and 50 kills and 2 deaths on Asad Kahl. By self-admittance, most of my kills that night were from sprinting full auto no scopes, and knives. You will find similar results from the rest of us.

Very good example. How very sad..
I don't think the DEVs foresaw this at all. Then again, these 'tactics' could might as well paid well off in previous release on these maps, atleast the latter is extremely spammy imo.

**llPANCHOll** · 02-17-2009, 11:12 AM

Taking the rifle from the medic class would address alot of this.
There could be two medics, one with a bag and rifle, and one requestable with paddles and no weapon.

**FISHMAN69** · 02-17-2009, 12:29 PM

I agree with CoronadoSeal,
but lets try to point out the problems in a more serious way.

I didnt play 0.8 and 0.85 much cause i cant feel it anymore,so bare with me.
The following points are from my personal perspective

The medic gameplay mechanic was just screwed in every version of PR,but in 0.85 it got even worse.

I think that getting rid of the medic class as a whole is the most hardcore but also best solution to drive PR in a less arcady but more thought out and tactical direction.

As i see it,supply crates of any kind should do the medic job,by just rearming the field dressing,so its nothing new.

And this is probably the biggest problem in PR:

People are not afraid of small arms fire.
Thats the reason why tactical movement and suppressive fire are not as effective as they should be.

I think that it shouldnt take more than two shots to kill with standard ammunition.

Let me know what you think.

**Bullseye2550** · 02-17-2009, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by llPANCHOll

Taking the rifle from the medic class would address alot of this.
There could be two medics, one with a bag and rifle, and one requestable with paddles and no weapon.

medic should have a pistol, not a rifle. (many armys have that)

bring back headshot / shell death = kill, not wounded.

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 02-17-2009, 12:37 PM

I think that perhaps deviation is a little too friendly at this point. Don't hang me, but perhaps it needs to go back toward .8 deviation. Laser beams are no fun. Bring back suppressing fire, bring back movement. After all, that is what tactical engagements are all about, fire and maneuver.

The big problem all PR players, myself included, seem to have with deviation is that the game is not WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). If my crosshairs are on an enemy and I pull the trigger, I expect the round to find it's mark. The game engine does not allow for the sway of the barrel due to movement, breathing, etc. It always sits perfectly still, even if you've just sprinted 100m. In real life, I can't imagine that happening, even for the best trained soldiers. So, the .8 deviation was frustrating because it tried to account for sway, etc., but the player sees the X on the target's head and gets frustrated when they miss with 5 shots in a row.

If deviation was corrected and not every shot was a laser, then more realistic weapon damage could be brought back. If almost every shot hits it's mark, then there is no way you can make headshots fatal. I understand the logic in that decision.

Logistics still aren't much of an issue because, quite frankly, most players don't live long enough to ever worry about running out of ammunition, and most "fire fights" (and I use the term loosely) don't last long enough to require resupply, either.

I'm still in favor of a revive costing a ticket for your team. Perhaps a death is 2. There needs to be some type of penalty for being wounded to the point of being incapacitated and requiring an epi-pen stick (I realize it is a metaphor). You need to keep your head down. You need to use cover. You need to use suppressing fire. You need to maneuver and flank. Period.

**socomseal93** · 02-17-2009, 12:42 PM

I think medics/revives should stay but maybe make it so that theres a 50/50 chance that you can be revived. But if your hit by a tank round or headshotted you should instantly die.

**Warlab** · 02-17-2009, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Doro9

What do I know about realistic combat? Well I just got back from Afganistan a few months ago so thats a start right?

Hey Doro..... Thanks for your service bro

**[R-Dev]Jaymz** · 02-17-2009, 04:18 PM

Thank you for pointing out exploits that we plan to correct. One in particular being the exploitation of the Medic kit/class which we plan to limiting to one per squad in the future. I'm sorry that you, and most of your clan, don't like the new release and you have many valid points for this. Your least valid point, however, is argument about realism.

You hail 0.8 deviation as being more realistic while completely ignoring the fact that it was never based on realism (which, relatively, the current deviation is). Deviation in 0.809 was based purely on "player conditioning", meaning.....

You give the player a rifle that has way less than half the accuracy it would in real life. Even then, it only has that accuracy if he's crouched/prone and has settled for 2.5 seconds. One that time is up, his round will deviate 30cm (11.8 inches) away from his point of aim on a target 100m out.

Just to qualify with basic marksmanship in a modern military you need to be more than twice that accurate. Hence the maximum accuracy in 0.85 is almost twice what is was in 0.8. How do we accommodate for allowing minimally realistic accuracy*?

1. A settle time that's twice what it used to be. You don't get that accuracy for five seconds. After a full sprint, you're accuracy for the first few seconds will be worse than it was in 0.8. Insta-prone headshots @ 200m? Even pulling a headshot @ 200m with full settle time is chancy.

2. A firing deviation that requires pacing your shots with one second intervals for maximum accuracy. If you shoot twice in quick succession, then a two second wait time is required. This was a great feature of the 0.8 deviation, so it was tweaked a little and included in 0.85.

This is only taking main rifles into consideration. It would really be a challenge to make Designated Marksman rifles and Sniper Rifles more unrealistic than they were in 0.8.

My conclusion is to ask what everybody on these forums (TG, TF21, anyone) what they prefer.

Do you prefer unrealistic accuracy to be coded into every weapon in an attempt to try and condition people into using realistic tactics? (0.8)

Obvious downsides: Forces realism/teamwork due to unrealistic weapon capabilities.

or

Minimally realistic* accuracy coded into every weapon to try and incorporate realism into the BF2 engine.

Obvious downsides: Opens the door to lone-wolfing/exploitation which is what the first post in this thread revolves around.

* I say minimally realistic because we have to accommodate for BF2's linear bullet travel path and the common PR engagement range. Realistically, modern assault rifles are more accurate than they are now in 0.85.

This final part is directed at Rusty, Hellhound and Coronado:

It's all fun and games when you call it "Tongue in cheek humour" but it doesn't change the fact that it's exactly how you feel about the latest version. Try look at all of this through the eyes of a developer that dedicated half a year of his life to this release. That developer being me,

Half a year gathering military advice, learning new coding skills (one in particular where thanks goes to Wolfe), brainstorming with community members and other developers about how to improve realism and teamwork, being responsible for all audio work in the mod, being brought into a management position where even more responsibility fell on my shoulders.....this list goes on and on up until the release of 0.85 where I finally got to play the damn mod.

And behold, what happens? One of the clans I respect the most, that I was keeping in mind all the way through development and thinking "what would these guys want?", come onto the TG forums and talk absolute smack about everything I worked on.

Through your eyes it's humour. Through mine, it's offensive.

Now, how about instead of beating around the bush and complaining about what you claim to be an arcade style release. You PM me on the PR forums with a list of concerns and possible changes that you would like to see in future version.

all the best, Jaymz.

**Berlancic** · 02-17-2009, 04:40 PM

Of course it can't be fully realistic (not directing this at maker of thread) otherwise the US would always win, or the British.

Point of no return?

Which server do you play on?

So are you just writing this because it isn't how you like it?

Arcade style?

Play Bf2 again if you want arcade style, don't go on complaining about PR because it isn't the way you'd like it.

The only thing you need to change to play PR 0.85 is a larger amount of teamwork and communication.

The one thing I hate about 0.85 is not even related to it, it's just that Bf2 had to be a spoil sport and now smacktards from all over the world will come to play PR, making it a lot more annoying in PR.

And you complain about the newest version of what is one of the most realistic games/mods out there I think, do you know how much time the developers and other guys spent on this.

Just for you to complain about it, you should say what you think are problems in the PR forums by maybe PMing one of the Devs there, not accusing the new version of being 'arcade' and other stuff.

Yes, I can see how the devs would be offended by this.

**Paine** · 02-17-2009, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by RustyBandSaw

It's quite obvious the comical and facetious tone has been completely lost here.

Im surprised it only took 5 other posts of the "stop QQing" and "gtfo" variety for someone to realize this.

**llPANCHOll** · 02-17-2009, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by [R-Dev]Jaymz

Thank you for pointing out exploits that we plan to correct. One in particular being the exploitation of the Medic kit/class which we plan to limiting to one per squad in the future. I'm sorry that you, and most of your clan, don't like the new release and you have many valid points for this. Your least valid point, however, is argument about realism.

You hail 0.8 deviation as being more realistic while completely ignoring the fact that it was never based on realism (which, relatively, the current deviation is). Deviation in 0.809 was based purely on "player conditioning", meaning.....

You give the player a rifle that has way less than half the accuracy it would in real life. Even then, it only has that accuracy if he's crouched/prone and has settled for 2.5 seconds. One that time is up, his round will deviate 30cm (11.8 inches) away from his point of aim on a target 100m out.

Just to qualify with basic marksmanship in a modern military you need to be more than twice that accurate. Hence the maximum accuracy in 0.85 is almost twice what is was in 0.8. How do we accommodate for allowing minimally realistic accuracy*?

1. A settle time that's twice what it used to be. You don't get that accuracy for five seconds. After a full sprint, you're accuracy for the first few seconds will be worse than it was in 0.8. Insta-prone headshots @ 200m? Even pulling a headshot @ 200m with full settle time is chancy.

2. A firing deviation that requires pacing your shots with one second intervals for maximum accuracy. If you shoot twice in quick succession, then a two second wait time is required. This was a great feature of the 0.8 deviation, so it was tweaked a little and included in 0.85.

This is only taking main rifles into consideration. It would really be a challenge to make Designated Marksman rifles and Sniper Rifles more unrealistic than they were in 0.8.

My conclusion is to ask what everybody on these forums (TG, TF21, anyone) what they prefer.

Do you prefer unrealistic accuracy to be coded into every weapon in an attempt to try and condition people into using realistic tactics? (0.8)

Obvious downsides: Forces realism/teamwork due to unrealistic weapon capabilities.

or

Minimally realistic* accuracy coded into every weapon to try and incorporate realism into the BF2 engine.

Obvious downsides: Opens the door to lone-wolfing/exploitation which is what the first post in this thread revolves around.

* I say minimally realistic because we have to accommodate for BF2's linear bullet travel path and the common PR engagement range. Realistically, modern assault rifles are more accurate than they are now in 0.85.

This final part is directed at Rusty, Hellhound and Coronado:

It's all fun and games when you call it "Tongue in cheek humour" but it doesn't change the fact that it's exactly how you feel about the latest version. Try look at all of this through the eyes of a developer that dedicated half a year of his life to this release. That developer being me,

Half a year gathering military advice, learning new coding skills (one in particular where thanks goes to Wolfe), brainstorming with community members and other developers about how to improve realism and teamwork, being responsible for all audio work in the mod, being brought into a management position where even more responsibility fell on my shoulders.....this list goes on and on up until the release of 0.85 where I finally got to play the damn mod.

And behold, what happens? One of the clans I respect the most, that I was keeping in mind all the way through development and thinking "what would these guys want?", come onto the TG forums and talk absolute smack about everything I worked on.

Through your eyes it's humour. Through mine, it's offensive.

Now, how about instead of beating around the bush and complaining about what you claim to be an arcade style release. You PM me on the PR forums with a list of concerns and possible changes that you would like to see in future version.

all the best, Jaymz.

Handled like a gentleman..
+rep for having a cool head.

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