Obaying bad SL orders

**Soupy_Norman** · 07-22-2009, 11:00 PM

First off i very rarely squad lead. The responsability of everyone of your squad members is your responsability. Ive slowly started doing it more. But i prefer being just a grunt.

I was just wondering what everyone thinks of following stupid, retarded and suicidally pointless SL orders.

Examples of what im talking about came around 8 hours ago on TG server on Kashan 32.
We were in a tank/bradley squad.
Our sl and a gunner were in an M1A1, myself and a gunner a bradley and another 2 squad mates another bradley.
We found a FB around A3 over the ridge from North Outpost. We set about blowing it and its crates up. I said to my SL that we should leave the area imidiatly as the enemy would now know of our presence.
My advice fell on deaf ears. Instead we moved into position a few hundred yards away facing bunker (but unable to see it). At this point my SL says "Hell be back in a minute".
So now we basically have 2 bradleys and a "Dead" tank sitting in an area the enemy knows we were just in. Lo and behold less than 20 seconds later my bradley explodes without warning, then the other bradley, then the allready useless tank.

Back to main.

To guys leave the squad so myself and my previous gunner take a bradley and my Sl and his gunner a tank.

I end up transporting a squad to a drop just east of the ridge over looking bunkers.
We set up on the ridge and engage several INF. After awhile we go back towards North outpost and cross the bridge. We take a left and head towards bunkers. When were near the south gate/entrance we spot a havok flying fairly low (200 odd meters) we begin to engage with cannon but we cannot hit it enough to scare it. Our SL orders us to drive into the bunker area. The havok begins pulling height and looking for the source of the cannon rounds. I suggest to my SL that we drive INTO a bunker and call for airsupport/AA/ or just wait for the havok to RTB. Instead of that my SL has the great idea of driving back out of the bunker area and onto the ridge to the east. I tell him if we do that were all dead.

"No no if you keep moving they wont kill us" *face palm*

So we begin driving onto the ridge, get a hundred yards past gate/entrance and a havok missile slams next to my bradley. The next one comes in the roof turret hatch destroying us completely.

The SL and his gunner continue their awesome plan of "movement" and get blown to sh*t just like we did. At this point i opened my console and typed "quit" and went outside for a walk.

So do people think i should have ignored my SL and hidden in bunkers or was i right to carry out the suicide run??

Tough one isnt it

**mat552** · 07-22-2009, 11:19 PM

You always gotta follow your sl orders, but if your sl is utterly terribly not with the program, no reason that SL has to be YOUR SL.

Hehe though.

**Ferris Bueller** · 07-22-2009, 11:22 PM

Well, first off, anyone who has ever had a half decent tank run before knows that going into the bunker complex with a tank is a huge mistake unless absolutely necessary, but thats beside the point.

The core of this has to do with the rules. Mat is actually wrong here (sorry mat). We expect teamwork and obediance to orders as long as the orders are reasonable and make sense. If someone gives you an order that is blatantly suicidal or otherwise stupid, you DO NOT have to follow it. However, before saying "no, i'm not doing that because you're an idiot", there are things to consider:
-You still have to maintain a mature candor. Treat the person with respect, regardless of how boneheaded you think their plan is.
-Outline to the person why the actions theyre trying to have you take are a bad idea.
-Suggest alternative plans that make sense.
-Inform them that you're not going to engage in suicidal tactics or those that will cause undue hardship to yourself, squad or team.

If they still decide to press with the orders, kindly inform them and the rest of your squad that you are unable to follow said orders and will be forming your own squad. If you are in a tank or other vehicle that requires squad cohesion to operate, suggest that your squadmates join you in a new squad to operate the vehicles in a safe and strategic manner. Then leave the squad (and exit the vehicles if necessary to avoid suicide-by-tank) and form a new one. From there, the onus is on you to make the big decisions.

Never be afraid to lead, but also never be afraid to question your leaders if you have a valid concern with their orders. If you follow these guidelines while using common sense, theres not an admin at TG that wont back your play.

**nk87** · 07-23-2009, 12:14 AM

Leave the squad if youre unhappy, works every time.

**ollie_fool** · 07-23-2009, 12:18 AM

I think what mat meant is to join a different squad, other than that there's not much you can do other than spread your knowledge to your squad leader and hope he listens.

**ACOGRecon** · 07-23-2009, 12:47 AM

In that situation the best thing you can do is try to pass on tactical knowledge as best as possible to the SL. If they don't listen then you have two options, 1) create a new squad, or 2) take whatever action you find is best regarding the asset (it is 12 tickets after all in your case) in the short term, but always default to SL orders in the long run. Protect the asset in the near future so you can use it appropriately in the future.

A true soldier does not react to the situation he is in, but is always one step ahead knowing what his next move is...Sometimes your SL might not have that kind of foresight as not everyone is a military tactician in PR.

**Balfa** · 07-23-2009, 01:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller

If someone gives you an order that is blatantly suicidal or otherwise stupid, you DO NOT have to follow it.

The rules seem pretty clear to me:

Originally Posted by Dirtboy

All players are required to follow orders. Squad Leaders are required to follow reasonable orders from their Commander, and all players must follow Squad Leader orders.

The only time it seems to offer the opportunity to question the orders is when they're from CO to SL. According to the above, SL orders to his squad must be followed, under all circumstances.

I think the best thing for norman to do in that case was to tell his squad-mates he was starting a new squad, and suggest they join. That's kinda crapping on the original SL, but maybe he'll get the point.

I rarely lead, and when I do, at least I know I'm crap at it, so I'm always open to input from my squad members.

**Ferris Bueller** · 07-23-2009, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by Balfa

The rules seem pretty clear to me:

The only time it seems to offer the opportunity to question the orders is when they're from CO to SL. According to the above, SL orders to his squad must be followed, under all circumstances.

This is a simple, logical oversight. The same rules apply to obeying SL orders. The standing mandate, and the admins will confirm this, is that you are not required to follow suicidal or unreasonable orders from anyone.

Perhaps the rules need to be amended to make it more clear, but you ask any seasoned player if they're going to listen to a whackjob SL anymore than a whackjob CO and see what they tell you.

**Startrekern** · 07-23-2009, 02:46 AM

Well, I might be considered a whackjob SL by a few, but I don't give orders to hear myself talk.

**Berlancic** · 07-23-2009, 08:27 AM

I think if you argue your point maturely, as Ferris has pointed out, that is the way to do it. Disregarding the SL entirely is immature and a sign of disrespect.

Yes, you can create or join another squad, that is the other option, which seems to cost less energy.

Or, what you can do, although this doesn't help the team. Is drive out there, get blown up, then show the SL the hard way what flaws his plan had.
That's actually a bad idea. You can always say that you were following SL orders.

Lesson 1: Don't Listen to a crazy 14 year old.

**Soupy_Norman** · 07-23-2009, 09:41 AM

Oh i didnt know you didnt have to follow an SL order if it was suicide. Thatll help alot in the future.

I did try pass on my advice to the SL kindly in BOTH instances but was ignored. I also got accross to the sl that i had been in this situation before and my route would lead to not being destroyed, but to no avail. Next time ill just mutiny :P

**snooggums** · 07-23-2009, 10:16 AM

I disagree with Ferris.

If the squad leader gives you stupid orders (likely to get you killed but not against the rules) you have to follow them or leave the squad. The SL may know something you don't after all. If the SL orders you to drive a tank into bunkers feel free to let him know it is a bad idea but if he says to do it anyway do so if you are to stay in the squad.

If he orders you to try to kill a tank with a standard BRDM explain as slowly as possible as to why it won't work. If he orders you to fly your chopper into a hotzone to drop a crate let him know, but if he insists you have to do it. When you die explain in a mature manner why it was a bad idea so he can learn from it in the future.

If we just say 'If it's likely to get you killed you can refuse' then players can just refuse anything because it is a war game and pretty much everything you do is likely to get you killed. Respect the chain of command and think: Is it against the rules? If not then you need to do it or get out of the squad.

And if you leave the squad and take the tank, you should return it to the former squad if asked, you left the squad after all, not the tank.

**LoveSkylark** · 07-23-2009, 11:33 AM

Im with Snoogums on this one.

Follow orders period, if you thing it's the wrong thing to do you can allert your SL, ask to do it diffrently etc., but if he over rules you, you DO IT.

You have to trust that your SL know what he is doing and if you dont find a new SL (I dont mean rage quit with bad comments just find a new SL next round)

**sapientiea** · 07-23-2009, 11:40 AM

If you think you can do it better then your SL, then you start a squad and do better. I do not think it is that difficult is it?

**Crombo** · 07-23-2009, 12:02 PM

The way I look at this is basicaly like in the real life. Even in the Army if you are given a direct order you HAVE to follow it, however if this order is in direct violation of Army code of Conduct or the Geneva's Convention, then you do have the right to disobey (But expect a court martial where youll have to explain yourself).

My point, while it is frustrating to follow a SL that seems to NOT know what hes doing, this is after all A GAME. Dont lose sight of that. Try to have fun with orders that you know will get yourself or your entire team killed.

If you are in the middle of a serious game (which we all get into from time to time), ask him to repeate the order "Uh, SL say again? There is a tank on that hill and we dont have any anti armor with us." If he doesnt expalin that he knows something that you dont, then hey, either try to have fun with it or make your own sqd.

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