Buzzing Topics on the realitymod forums

[snooggums]

Pilots just aren't that ****ing important. They don't need special rules for tickets so the rest of the team cares about having to rescue them after they are shot out.

This game is not about the pilots. It's about the team, and you are one man on the team so you are worth one point. People do get rescued already without having to cost extra points, but there's no reason to ad something that risks 6 or so more points to save the precious pilot. If you want to be worth tickets keep the plane around you, then you are worth 11 tickets.

Making it so the pilot is worth more than the jet because it's a jet is ****ing stupid. That's it, stupid. It doesn't matter if they get shot down easy, it is still stupid.

[Googol]

Well, then it's really all up to the pilot himself isn't it? If he wants to be realistic, he can bail-out and try to make it back to base. In fact, now that aircraft get disabled alot quicker before they get destroyed makes this alot easier (except for the hydra hueys, in which case they forgot to set the disable level to a proper level). There is no need to make the pilots worth something just to make them feel special in order to encourage them to act realistically. It's up to you (yes you chopper whores).

[Celestial1]

Well, then it's really all up to the pilot himself isn't it? If he wants to be realistic, he can bail-out and try to make it back to base. In fact, now that aircraft get disabled alot quicker before they get destroyed makes this alot easier (except for the hydra hueys, in which case they forgot to set the disable level to a proper level). There is no need to make the pilots worth something just to make them feel special in order to encourage them to act realistically. It's up to you (yes you chopper whores).

Jet's still don't have this disabled effect, which is a big part of it.

First things first, the disabling effect would be needed to be added to jets, because bailing isn't very possible in most situations as the jet will end up smacking the pilot in the face.

Secondly, yes, it is all up to the pilot. If he gets help, great. If he doesn't, it's still up to himself to make it back safe. The tickets think is more of a forced push to make the pilot feel he needs to bail out, though it is to help his team a little rather than to save his life (because we should all know that players in PR just don't value their lives at times, so there has to be other ways to kind of get this reaction out of players) and a side-effect of this is that the team is more encouraged to save him. It's not necessarily intended, but in the same stroke encourages a 'realistic' situation.

Pilots just aren't that ****ing important. They don't need special rules for tickets so the rest of the team cares about having to rescue them after they are shot out.

This game is not about the pilots. It's about the team, and you are one man on the team so you are worth one point. People do get rescued already without having to cost extra points, but there's no reason to ad something that risks 6 or so more points to save the precious pilot. If you want to be worth tickets keep the plane around you, then you are worth 11 tickets.

Making it so the pilot is worth more than the jet because it's a jet is ****ing stupid. That's it, stupid. It doesn't matter if they get shot down easy, it is still stupid.

Let's just agree to disagree. You see it one way, I see it the other, and it's not likely we'll come to an agreement.

You're just getting aggravated and going to end up turning this thread into flamebait. Just drop it, we both see it differently.

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

The problem with all of this pilot is worth tickets crap is that it is ass backwards and isn't logical at all.

He (the glorious pilot) is only worth tickets when he's flying, because it is then, and only then, when he is of value to the team. When he is not in his jet, he is as worthless as the medic who won't revive his fallen teammates or the dope who takes a sniper rifle and leaves your squad so he can go jerk off in the corner of the map somewhere and be all leet. The pilot is worth nothing, na-da, zilch without having the big, scary jet strapped onto his back. Therefore, the jet is what is of value in that pairing, and it is accurately represented in the game the way it is.

[Startrekern]

Honestly, in real life, what would you rather have, a good pilot or a replaceable jet?

This IS Project Reality, as has been so viciously pointed out in the past.

--
On another note, this thread does not need to degenerate into insults because we disagree like it's predecessors. Please.

[Berlancic]

Logistics and diverting assets and soldiers from the battle to save one pilot is not the case IRL, I think. Usually a dedicated resuce team is sent out an hour (sometimes days) or more/less later or the pilot runs into friendly forces, which is rare. Or the pilot dies. And the asset should be more important than the pilot. If friendlies are close and are performing a not so important job they can be diverted.

In PR dedicating a squad, for example, to saving one pilot can be a waste of manpower and assets. I'm not against the idea. The commander should make that ultimate decision, if there is one. The commander could prioritize whether sending a blackhawk to save a pilot is more important than transporting 1 infantry squad to a flag that is under attack. After all, as the commander, it's your battlefield.
It could be fun to rescue a pilot in game though. I realise my post probably just stated something, not argued it.

[Celestial1]

Logistics and diverting assets and soldiers from the battle to save one pilot is not the case IRL, I think. Usually a dedicated resuce team is sent out an hour (sometimes days) or more/less later or the pilot runs into friendly forces, which is rare. Or the pilot dies. And the asset should be more important than the pilot. If friendlies are close and are performing a not so important job they can be diverted.

Agreed. The dedicated rescue team would be, say, a blackhawk going out to save him. Usually it would be something like a team of Rangers or something inserted by blackhawk, locating the pilot, then defending him and getting him to a safe extraction point. Ingame, this could be simply 'represented' by the blackhawk picking him up as is, since we don't need a squad to be going out just to save the pilot from any threats.

If he runs into friendly forces, great, he can tag along and hopefully even grab a kit to join the fight until he can get back out.

In PR dedicating a squad, for example, to saving one pilot can be a waste of manpower and assets. I'm not against the idea. The commander should make that ultimate decision, if there is one. The commander could prioritize whether sending a blackhawk to save a pilot is more important than transporting 1 infantry squad to a flag that is under attack. After all, as the commander, it's your battlefield.

And if the commander is not around, the pilot should be the one making a (hopefully) rational decision. If he's got an infantry squad to transport, he should definitely make that a priority. If he's sitting around at main, waiting for something to do, and the pilot is in a reasonable area for extract (and confirms over teamchat that the area is safe), then he can make that his mission, to help the team and keep himself busy.

As soon as he's done with that, he should definitely work on his next mission if there is one. If he picks up the pilot, there's no reason he has to go immediately back to main if someone needs a supply drop or a helicopter pickup since the helicopters hold 8 passengers (pilot, rescued, and the 6 man squad). So it wouldn't really occupy the pilot too much if he's not already in the middle of something.

I realise my post probably just stated something, not argued it.

Well, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

Honestly, in real life, what would you rather have, a good pilot or a replaceable jet?

This IS Project Reality, as has been so viciously pointed out in the past.

--
On another note, this thread does not need to degenerate into insults because we disagree like it's predecessors. Please.

Where are the insults? I don't see any. I just see people debating a topic and exchanging views. Where is the flame war?

Anyway....

In reality, pilots spend 1-2 years in basic flight training to earn their wings at a cost of a little over $1 million dollars. They then receive additional training worth around $9 million to become operationally effective. So we'll ballpark it and say a pilot, with the minimum amount of training to be operationally effective, costs around $11 million.

By contrast, a modern F-16 costs around $17 million and a modern A-10 costs around $9 million.

So, the plane is worth at least, if not considerably more, than the pilot. Throw in maintenance costs, fuel, weapons, the cost of the crews that support those aircraft, the other aircraft that support those planes on their missions (AWACS, KC-135s, etc.) and you'll see that the value of the plane, in terms of dollars, outweighs the value of the pilot.

I will not argue the point that a well-trained, experienced pilot is needed to make the plane effective. However, this isn't reality, it is a game. TacticalGamer asks the players to play using real-life military tactics, not to be the real-life military in each and every aspect of play. TacticalGamer is about teamwork, where the individual is less important than the team, not elevating one player to some lofty status above the other 31 players on the team where each of those 31 needs to stop what they're doing in support of one another and team goals to go rescue some clown who will just sit around for another 15 minutes waiting for his jet to respawn so he can just get shot down again. Why not make the medics worth 20 tickets? Aren't they really the most important asset a team has? As far as I know, pilots cannot stop their team from losing tickets, help their team maintain the initiative by keeping their team in the action and keep their squad on the objective assigned by their SL and CO.

As has been mentioned before, we'd all love to help the pilots out but we're busy and, quite honestly, our calendar is booked for the next decade. Leave a message and we'll get back to you later.

Just as an observation, but I find it curious that the well-known pilots of TG are the only ones arguing for this change.

[snooggums]

In reality all soldiers left behind have a rescue attempt, not just pilots.

Since the ticket cost for a solider is the representation of them being on the battlefield losing a ticket for a soldier who suicides behind enemy lines represents the soldier hiding until a rescue attempt is made after the battle, like most pilot/stranded soldier rescues are. Pilots don't have rescue attempts because they are pilots, it is because they are soldiers.

The training value of a pilot is a plot device for movies, don't use movies for reality suggestions.

[Jeepo]

Glad I got to this party late......

Good points made by Dispo, Snoogums, Wickens etc. I just don't get this whole obsession with saving a worthless pilot. Once he is out of his machine he is as usefull as a hedgehog in a condom factory.

There would be not one single thing, and I mean one thing that would make me risk a single squad member to resuce a pilot who gets shot down. Suck it up. Deal with the fact that sometimes you lose and that your "best" is not good enough. Again agree with dispo on his "pussification" idea, it is a 21st century world wide thing, not just in the US.

I too see just the same people argueing against this who in game whore the pilot roles. Then there are the same few who attempt to call others out in a futile stab at making a flame war where they can start bashing TG, IHS's etc. Let it go, people know your game and you have zero credibility as it is, I would just stop as everytime YOU are called out you pussy out. Like I suggest stop the stoking the fires or you will get burned......

Now we are on the subject, what I would like to see with pilots is this:

NO ONE IS IN THE AIR.

Never.

A pilot WAITS at main for orders.

Permanantly.

Once CAS is called in the Jet is armed and ready and will be there in 20 seconds.

If you need crates the tard in the chopper does NOT have to RTB to rearm, he simpy takes of halfing the time you are waiting due to other useless peoples incompetance.

The selfrightous and arrogant attitude from some pilts we see is crazy, especially as so many of them actually suck as team players, which is what TG is all about. There are plenty of other communities out there if you want to chopper whore, feel free to leave if you don't like what is the one solid foundation TG is built on. Flying that chopper round in the middle of the map is pointless, costs tickets when you get a "lag spike" (read suck and crash again). Stay on the bloody ground until you get an order/request.

Thinking of starting a poll on this to show how alone the "leet" pilots are in their selfish ways......

[Eavy Gunner]

Just as an observation, but I find it curious that the well-known pilots of TG are the only ones arguing for this change.

Wrong. I havn't seen an input from pilots such as Marine, X-soldier or Supercobra. The casual pilots are split from the look of this.

Using my monthly good idea, I'm going to imagine a pilot did go down, and that the CO is going to send an amount of troops. Each team has let's say, 600 tickets, so a pilot worth 5 ticket's is about 0.9% of the team's tickets. So straight away, a huge amount of 5 tickets might be lost because Maverick and Goose bit off more than they could chew in the air.

So the CO has a big decision to make. Where does he place his assets. Does he send an mechanized infantry squad to located downed Maverick ( Let's assume Goose doesn't have a working ejector seat.) Now that mechanized squad is worth 16 tickets in itself, and if the pilot landed ontop of an angry T-72 ( angry because Mr Maverick decided to try and bomb the s*** out of it), Is it worth risking extra tickets to save a disgraced pilot when he will probably just get back to main via a body bag?

And what if that infantry squad could be deployed somewhere else where they could prevent the loss of more tickets. Let's say a HMG nest is pinning down KO'd bodies at north bunker gate. If said Mechanized squad rode up, killed the two HMG nest's and then revived the 6 man KO'd squad, they just earnt 8 tickets. Now because they had 14 bodies on a flag, the flag began to move their way, and so prevented the opposing team from outcapping and causing a bleed which would lose more than 1% of the bleed.

I appreciate that pilot rescue is realistic, but you've got to remember the crucial thing in all BF2 suggestions is that "Engine limitations" comes into play. So let's think again, can Pilot rescues be realisticly modelled into PR? I say no, because a pilot rescue is a mission in itself.

Reality time-If the current theatre is a few skirmised battles against an insurgency, a pilot rescue would be veasible, as flashing headlines "Maverick killed by Taliban" doesn't look good on the evening news. If the theatre was one of PR, where is Total War ( like WW2), pilot's arent valued enough to be rescued by a bigger force. Sure they'll be rescued if they can reach a very safe LZ or make it back to an FOB, but they wont detail a platoon or so rescue 1 man, because the truth of the matter is, natural resoucres aren't as expendable as human ones. Back to PR and the 1 ticket + the 10 ticket jet seem's a very good amount to have. A man is a man, and a Multi million pound jet is a Multi million pound jet. It's all a matter of scaling and ratio's.

[snooggums]

Wrong. I havn't seen an input from pilots such as Marine, X-soldier or Supercobra. The casual pilots are split from the look of this.

Not to question their flying routine or abilities but I don't remember the last time I've seen them fly, all I've seen for the last year is Celestial/Startrekern/csxgamerz running jet CAS squads. Look who wants special points for pilots and who made the Asset Stealing thread. Real team players like you mentioned above don't have to justify their pilot's lives for rescue with additional points, they will either make it back, suicide or be picked up because they are team players and earn a rescue.

I finally get why so many players comment that they are happy to do without Quinling and Kashan 64, it's a player problem and not a map problem.

[Eavy Gunner]

Not to question their flying routine or abilities but I don't remember the last time I've seen them fly, all I've seen for the last year is Celestial/Startrekern/csxgamerz running jet CAS squads. Look who wants special points for pilots and who made the Asset Stealing thread. Real team players like you mentioned above don't have to justify their pilot's lives for rescue with additional points, they will either make it back, suicide or be picked up because they are team players and earn a rescue.

As I said, its a matter of scaling and ratio. Most long term players realize are rational in games, and can produce a bigger picture beyond themselves, and ultimately help the team. I may not like shovelling, or being a medic, but it helps everyone else out. To be blunt here, this appears as a way of keeping their scoreboard on X/0 because a death looks bad when flying.

[AlmightyLion]

Most of the time the transport choppers sit in the middle of the main doing nothing.

That is not ture. Most of the times the choppers are either blown up/flipped or out flying when not needed. (gotto love when you try to do something sneaky with your squad and out from nowhere comes a huge chopper and lands next to you - "jump in" !)

[Startrekern]

That is not ture. Most of the times the choppers are either blown up/flipped or out flying when not needed. (gotto love when you try to do something sneaky with your squad and out from nowhere comes a huge chopper and lands next to you - "jump in" !)

This is because the pilots become bored. Give them something extra to do!

It obviously isn't "wasting time" for said pilot if he's randomly flying around because no one needs him.

Also, since when would you send an infantry squad to rescue a pilot? You don't have to.

If you use the half-pilot, half-plane ticket ratio, (i.e. five tickets each) it just gives (more of) an incentive for the pilot to try to save his life and for a bored chopper pilot to try and rescue him.

If rescue's impossible/difficult (then don't attempt it!) or the pilot dies, it wouldn't be any worse than it already is on tickets.