Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation

**Celestial1** · 09-11-2009, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Eavy Gunner

I dont mind if they switch between crouch and stand, as this is perfectly reasonable for any human being with kneecaps (unless they lost them in a football accident). It's when prone to stand/crouch is used is what annoys me, as that is unrealistic

The human body doesn't react in the way portrayed in game, though, and therefore is unrealistic because of that. I suggest you go time yourself or someone else who is standing to crouch and then get back up as fast as they can, then compare that to how quickly your soldier will do so ingame.

Because of your own natural bodyweight, whatever weight you are, you must shift your weight onto the balls of your feet, push your hips forward and upright your back; your body can't do this instantly, and will take a short time to do so. Players ingame can do so as fast as they can press and release the crouch button.

Originally Posted by TheSkudDestroyer

I wonder how many kids could really jack-in-the-box with an M249 anyway....

Someday, realism will be where it needs to be!

I congratulate anyone who can do squats with full gear and an M249 over and over again.

Without gear alone, it will still take you a bit to stand up; with full gear, it will require more effort and will certainly become tiring quickly.

Originally Posted by Eavy Gunner

SAW has a bipod, so why can't it be used like the static one?

The static SAWs placed on barriers? They restrict your movement, and your area-of-aim, so it's a tradeoff. And, they also don't have scopes. Or proper usable ironsights, if I remember correctly.

Originally Posted by Celestial1

the bf2 hitbox has to account for this and will often confuse the player in his attempt to hit the offender.

I think this is one of two issues that really affects the ability of a player to hit the enemy J.i.t.Box-er; the other is due to the speed with which they can crouch and stand.

Also, a lot of suppressing fire is not just firing over their heads but actually aiming to kill after you have fire superiority; First you fire rapidly to get them down, then you slow your fire and aim accurately to take them out and give them a fear of dieing.

Because they can easily pop up and down, it requires you to again up your rate of fire, making you waste bullets on a single player which will in turn result in the rest of his squad to begin firing down on you while part of your squad focuses on him, and even worse if more than one is doing this technique, you're forced to try to spray as much lead in that direction as possible.

Because of no fear of death, instant stance changing, and a lagging hitbox which comes with the bouncing up and down, it becomes a big issue, I think. I would say that it's less popular but just as, if not more, of an exploit in comparison to prone diving. Both suck, but JitBoxing makes the hitbox lag, and allows a player to be in complete concealment while settling deviation; prone-diving helps to lower your minimum deviation, meaning that you instantly have a small bonus to aim, as well as a lower silhouette which makes a big difference in short-range firefights.

At short range, prone-diving is the culprit; at mid-long range, I believe JitBox replaces it.

**Portable.Cougar** · 09-11-2009, 10:26 PM

I tend to get killed while crouching / already down as my hitbox can not keep up with my movements.

See a HAT guy?

Did he just duck?

Better do something casue in 6 sec when his animation is ready hes gonna stand up and shoot you

**MarcusLee** · 09-11-2009, 10:51 PM

I take it, it is not possible to just slow down the time it takes to move from standing to crouch and vice versa?

**Skud** · 09-11-2009, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by MarcusLee

I take it, it is not possible to just slow down the time it takes to move from standing to crouch and vice versa?

It would seem that would be hardcoded.

I don't understand how these characters dive the way they do anyway. They must have very bruised... everything. For example, I'm right handed. So when I go prone, I take my left hand off the heat guard/grip and put it out ahead of me as I slow down and drop down. Keeping my gun downrange, straight, and ready to fire, I place my bodyweight on my left hand and get my body on the ground and go from there.

It's actually a rather awkward process. Also, I always have my body curved to the left, and my legs comfortably spaced about a foot and a half.

I'd also love for a sitting position. I'm 6'3. Long arms make prone a bit awkward, and everyone has their own posture for crouched position. But I find sitting indian style to be very comfortable. And if I curl up a bit, I'm really rock solid.

It's all about me

**Alpha_s9** · 09-12-2009, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by TheSkudDestroyer

I congratulate anyone who can do squats with full gear and an M249 over and over again.

Really?

This is not Ghost Recon or the subject of Future Weapons

I'm just saying that cover can be above and below your firing position, like moving objects around to make a nice firing position... but you can't replicate this in-game due to restrictions. There's always a shot on somebody that's shooting at you, but I just find it amazing how many times an insurgent with iron sights can hit a guy firing from cover at 200-300 meters seemingly with little or no problems.

As for squats with a 249... that goes back to propping it up on an object you're using for cover and then leaving it there when you duck. I'm not sure how many AK rounds a 249 can take before it starts to shoot sideways though. I wouldn't call those squats though, more like "leans" or "prairie dogs".

Obviously the animations don't portray it, but when I'm firing from behind cover my mind is thinking like that.

Future weapons hell... I can duct tape my digital camera to my m4 and save money! (because we know uncle sam ain't gonna spring for it as a standard option)

**Celestial1** · 09-13-2009, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by WDT_Alpha_s9

As for squats with a 249... that goes back to propping it up on an object you're using for cover and then leaving it there when you duck. I'm not sure how many AK rounds a 249 can take before it starts to shoot sideways though. I wouldn't call those squats though, more like "leans" or "prairie dogs".

If you were to literally duck while trying to leave the m249 on the ledge, then you will be pulling the muzzle up as you do so, as well as, I would guess, the possibility of completely lifting the bipod off of the object, or pulling it off of a steady hold and having it land upon your head.

If you were to lean, you would likely do the same thing towards whatever way you lean, as without extending your outward arm, which would require shifting your shoulder and elbow if leaning left, or releasing the handguards if leaning to the right.

Either way, your weapon will move. If you were to duck your head, like the reaction you might get when a round whizzes past you, you would probably only move your weapon a minimal bit due to just compressing your body to get as low to the cover without crouching as possible; but you would still be exposed enough to shoot, as opposed to being completely behind cover.

Sirsolo, I think it was, came up to me today while I was using the stairs of an I-building as crouch cover, standing, aiming, and then firing (albeit inaccurately, and with ironsights) at a sniper out in the hills about 4-500 meters away; he said "That's a cheap tactic".

However, I was not doing so quickly, and I was only sticking up to aim and then fire; not once did I attempt to stand up and aim, then wait for deviation to settle while crouched. I aimed at him after I had stood, then fired, without attempting to reaim before ducking. I believe that this is realistic, as long as the timing requires you to be standing for about a full second (this second includes aiming and firing, not just standing up) which is plenty of time for a good sniper to fire and any other infantryman to have a good chance at scoring a hit.

**sirsolo** · 09-13-2009, 04:02 AM

Im pretty strongly opinionated to NO on the subject. It should be controlled. We did pretty well with bunny hopping, yes? Why not with Jack(arse) in the box?

~Solo

**Belhade** · 09-13-2009, 04:57 AM

IMO, if I shoot at someone, duck for cover, then pop back up, and they haven't moved, they deserve to get two in the chest.

**LeadMagnet** · 09-13-2009, 11:23 AM

We're actually considering changing the H/AT kit so that it can only fire from the prone position (no more jack in the box). As for the rest unfortunately EA only deemed to give us access to prone deviation, not crouch.

**Wicks** · 09-13-2009, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by sirsolo

im pretty strongly opinionated to no on the subject. It should be controlled. We did pretty well with bunny hopping, yes? Why not with jack(arse) in the box?

~solo

imo wrong.

Originally Posted by belhade

imo, if i shoot at someone, duck for cover, then pop back up, and they haven't moved, they deserve to get two in the chest.

imo right!

**thegreatnardini** · 09-13-2009, 01:02 PM

How are we possibly going to be able to enforce a rule like that? Not gonna happen...

**Eavy Gunner** · 09-13-2009, 01:06 PM

With a very big stick, and more spare time than anyone has.

**sirsolo** · 09-13-2009, 01:23 PM

Like I said, the same way we enforce every other rule? Bunnyhopping? Suicide tactics? See and report. Simple.

**bassochist** · 09-13-2009, 01:54 PM

How would you determine if the person was "jack in the box'ing" or legitimately using their cover in such away that left them alive and you dead? And then would people report it out of anger a being killed by someone smart enough to hide?
I tend to agree with the side saying that there comes a point that we have to except the limitations of the game and our expectations of "reality".
This is less frustrating to me than firing on a guy 10 to 20 meters from me and missing...in "reality" I bet the army would give you a desk job if you were that bad. But that's the limitations of the game. If I remember, during training, we could fire decently from the hip at 25 feet, never mind using the sights.

**Celestial1** · 09-14-2009, 12:41 AM

It would be fixed easily if we could make it so that changing stances makes you completely unable to fire for just a short time (like how you can't fire when going prone, maybe extend the prone change slightly and make the crouch-standing one short).

If it were treated like bunnyhopping, I would say to refrain from reporting unless the player is attempting to do so rapidly enough that it would interfere with hitting him due to the hitbox, and be given a warning before kicks.

It's a very natural motion, that makes absolute sense to do, made infinitely quicker and more deadly by the engine's limitations.

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