Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 09-14-2009, 12:53 AM

Let's just make it a rule that prone and crouch are now illegal movements. Everyone must remain standing at all times.

**Celestial1** · 09-14-2009, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Let's just make it a rule that prone and crouch are now illegal movements. Everyone must remain standing at all times.

Well, at least for sure we'd never fear being sniped again.

**Rudd_medicman** · 09-14-2009, 03:14 AM

^ Haha

**Wicks** · 09-14-2009, 07:09 AM

1) Whatever you do with the code there will be a flaw.

2) How are all these people dying at the hands of fiendish jack in the box shooters, why aren't they using cover as well hmm?

3) Why are they just laying, crouching, standing exposed whilst the other guy composes himself for a shot behind good, solid cover?

4) I suppose it's an exploit of the game engine by some definitions but you could look at it as simulation by approximation, whether that is the Dev's intent or not. A simulation of someone using cover, having a mental image of their target which increases their target aqquisition speed. This works and is the basis for most training. Visualisation and repetition remove hesitation and delay from action and allow the body to develop chained, automatic actions/responses. These are inherently quicker than deliberate, cognitive choice/decison behaviours.

It's frustating now and again, simply use cover yourself and get squad mates to flank. If someone is determined to 'jack in the box' despite being heavily engaged then they are probably stupid enough to wait while you send a couple of guys round his flank to put 2 in his chest and one in his melon.

**Paine** · 09-14-2009, 05:58 PM

Even if it were decided there should be a rule about jack-in-the-box (JITB), that rule would be unenforceable as has been said. If someone bunny hops, its obvious. If someone drives around you over and over again joe wilson out the window, its obvious. Going from crouch to standing... not so much.

So, how does JITB effect the flow of an inf engagement?

Having read through everyone's thoughts, the speed at which a player may go from being completely out of the line of fire, to being deadly accurate, is the issue. No threat to the shooter. But something happens before there is no threat to the shooter; he spotted you.

It all starts with who spots who first. If the enemy has seen you first, they are setting up to fire before you are, and are going to be more accurate than you in an engagement, all else equal. Whether they are behind cover when this happens is little issue in the long run. If you are experienced and are able to recognize that you have been spotted, you simply move off, displace or whatever, and try to hit them where you have the advantage. If you are being constantly killed by people popping in and out of cover, you were dead way before they shot you.

Personally I would rather a contact stay where i know they are and try to headshot me, cause you better believe my buddy is about to put three in him from the side.

**Dreadnought** · 09-14-2009, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by A.WICKENS

1) Whatever you do with the code there will be a flaw.

Exactly! I often find it ironic when I think about the reality that the object of a simulation (PR) is realism. Obviously, the entire purpose of making the game in the first place is to remove realism. We already have the real thing, no need to remake reality. Some may say we're making it more fun, but that is, in essence, removing the reality that it really isn't that fun. What realities are removed is a function of ability, cost, and a great deal of opinion.

I've heard people say they want a game that the only difference is you don't die. They describe this suit you wear that tracks every movement of your body. But they don't understand what they are asking for. Say they had a virtual reality suit that, if you get shot, gave you an extended stun in that location, probably burning you badly. If you get shot in the eye, the suit would literally blind you, the balls... hope you already had all the kids you want. People could even then complain that this removes more than just death! Injury to internal organs is largely neglected etc.

It's actually much more than death they want removed. Removal of injury, pain, exhaustion, emotional stress, monotony, and much more are not only required for people to call a game fun, but to sell copies. Opinions about how you choose to simulate a willful suspension of reality are just that, opinions. It's an abstract decision that is made, not an absolute that is obvious. And, believe it or not, that decision is democratic and you have a vote. You vote with your money by buying games. Over and over again, people have voted that conventional tactics and strategy are suitably disposable when paired against fast paced action and graphics of games like Counter Strike, Call of Duty, Crysis etc.

How can jack-in-the-box deviation be improved? Send someone with an M4 and a stopwatch to every players house and measure each person's ability. If we did that, I think most would opt to keep it as it is.

**Alpha_s9** · 09-14-2009, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Let's just make it a rule that prone and crouch are now illegal movements. Everyone must remain standing at all times.

Oh oh... can we all stand in straight line formation facing the enemy in open fields with bolt action lee enfields too?? :P

**james-d** · 09-14-2009, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Send someone with an M4 and a stopwatch to every players house and measure each person's ability.

Im totally up for that! keep me posted on how you do getting an M4 through airport security!

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 09-14-2009, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by WDT_Alpha_s9

Oh oh... can we all stand in straight line formation facing the enemy in open fields with bolt action lee enfields too?? :P

This would then turn PR into the Revolutionary War or perhaps the Civil War, where everyone would stand shoulder-to-shoulder firing their muskets at their enemies 20m away. Imagine the curses about deviation back then....

**Eavy Gunner** · 09-14-2009, 06:46 PM

Curses? I would be cursing the 1 minute reload time. Reloading would be a game in itself. And the new assets to fight over would be hot air ballons and cannons.

**Alpha_s9** · 09-14-2009, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

This would then turn PR into the Revolutionary War or perhaps the Civil War, where everyone would stand shoulder-to-shoulder firing their muskets at their enemies 20m away. Imagine the curses about deviation back then....

C'mon... everybody knows there wasn't deviation before rifling was invented!

**sporkife** · 09-14-2009, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

This would then turn PR into the Revolutionary War or perhaps the Civil War, where everyone would stand shoulder-to-shoulder firing their muskets at their enemies 20m away. Imagine the curses about deviation back then....

I vote we recreate Waterloo. I call English arty. Deviation is of less importance when you have several dozens of guns firing several pound chunks of metal.

**Wookie** · 09-14-2009, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Let's just make it a rule that prone and crouch are now illegal movements. Everyone must remain standing at all times.

If we gotta stand at all times I hope it's not at attention....."parade rest" anybody?

**Berlancic** · 09-15-2009, 04:08 AM

It's the engine, I don't think we can change it. And to be honest, I would rather have jack in the box than not. The game would be less enjoyable without it, because you feel like every second instead of playing you are focusing on what not to do. That is not fun, I play games to get away from school, rather than feel like the server is a bitch of a teacher who will go mental for you going 1 metre near a girl.

And besides, just because he can do jack in the box, has a rifle and is a soldier doesn't mean he's smart. Remain in cover while he sits there waiting for you to pop up and send some people to flank 'round and kill him. Or smoke + retreat to better position, although that will not always work unless the position is not directly accessable.

No matter how good you shoot, no matter how much you exploit the engine (note that hacking is different in most cases), tactics will over-rule.

**BigGaayAl** · 09-15-2009, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Let's just make it a rule that prone and crouch are now illegal movements. Everyone must remain standing at all times.

I think your idea is totally flawed.

Often times I run behind a wall to avoid fire. I then open my lips to catch a relaxing breath, safe and soothed in the knowledge that I am now securely behind a metre thick concrete wall. And suddenly, someone shoots at the invisible body that is following me around like an out of shape groupie. Upon my death I realize someone has yet again used the "shoot invisible fat groupie" exploit.

Therefore I move your proposal be perfected by banning moving.

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