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Discussion: Project Reality / PR:BF2 - Jack-in-the-Box deviation - Understanding the time it takes to settle your cone of fire for each weapon at
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09-07-2009, 06:30 PM #1
Jack-in-the-Box deviation
Understanding the time it takes to settle your cone of fire for each weapon at a given distance, not really a science of going through the equation before you fire, but more a feeling experience provides, is one of the most important variables between winning and losing an inf engagement.
If you can allow yourself to settle into that precise cone of fire while in cover, completely out of sight of the enemy... that is what makes the difference between getting a kill and moving on to the next engagement, or getting a death. This is how things are, a separate discussion from how things should be.
Popping up from the prone stance into the crouch stance, or the crouch into the standing, and firing immediately is what many call "Jack-in-the-Box". Settle time seemed to carry over almost exactly between stances. Headshots before the enemy knows you are there, leet epeen, etc.
I have noticed that with the 1.5 patch the deviation is greater, much greater in fact, between stance switches. Has anyone else noticed this?
Of course this contradicts what I have read about these stance change deviations being hardcoded, but the question stands.
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Now for my opinion on the matter; I've demo'd this mechanic, and it is a bit ridiculous in all honesty.
Depending on the distance, I wait a given amount of time without moving my unit model on any plane, and am able to shoot with pinpoint accuracy. The deviation does not change drastically if i spin my unit around using the mouse, or crouch and prone spam like I am listening to Jihad radio. While moving in these ways, any expansion of the cone of fire is minimal, something comparable to when you move the HAT optics a smidgen left or right with the mouse. In contrast If i take a half step to the right, left, forward or back, the deviation cone is completely reset, making my fire totally inaccurate until I allow the cone to settle again.
In a perfect world, where hard-coded is not a term in use, I imagine a cone of fire that expands and contracts in relation to how much you move in any way, whether it be spinning around, changing stances, or taking a few steps out of cover. Only other minimal variable in the deviation equation being how rested you are (how much sprint you have). Deviation only being completely reset when you lower your weapon from sighted up. This way your accuracy is not so much dictated by how still you are, but rather how ready you are for firing.Last edited by Paine; 09-07-2009 at 06:47 PM.
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09-07-2009, 09:10 PM #2
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
If I understand what I have been told and what you are asking...
Originally Posted by Paine
Stance change deviation is 'hardcoded'. However, with the release of the 1.5 patch it has been implemented. It's still hardcoded, as in it cannot be changed by the PR devs, but it's now implemented because DICE devs coded it in there.
Before 1.41 patch it was hardcoded and non-existant entirely, whereas it is existant in 1.5 but not edit-able.
I have not played .87 as of yet, due to circumstances beyond my control, but this is what I have gathered from the talks of what 1.5 was going to bring. Originally, I believe we were under the assumption that it would implement it and also allow it to be editted, but apparently this was not the case.
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09-07-2009, 09:40 PM #3
Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
Jack in the Box shooting is exploitative, IMO, but cannot be enforced. I just discourage people in my squad from using it. I don't care if its effective, it completely ruins some firefights because some SAW decides to hit his crouch button 400 times in 1 minute.
|TG-70th|Skud
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09-07-2009, 09:42 PM #4
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
I haven't noticed any difference. To my understanding the only change was the "delay" between stances was changed in BF2 1.5. The variable that was changed in the patch was already brought up by the PR dev's already.
Using arbitrary numbers:
BF2 1.41: 0.5
PR: 2.5
BF2 1.5: 1.0
PR+1.5: 2.5
I could be wrong, it happens all the time.
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09-07-2009, 11:23 PM #5
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
I can only hope it's higher. Have you tried going from prone to crouch in less than a second, firing off a perfect shot, and going back to prone? Hell, even from crouch. Impossible.
~Solo|TG-Irr|Sirsolo since 18OCT08.
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09-08-2009, 05:17 AM #6
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
High ping has an annoying effect on deviation. It always takes more time than should to be accurate. It will usually take 2-3 seconds to be fully accurate with a normal assault rifle in PR. With ping such as 200+ it takes 4 or even 5 seconds. And I don't know why.
Thanks for that information though, the part where moving your mouse won't effect it too much but actually moving the character in a step will reset the deviation.|TG-69th|Berlancic2"Speed. Aggression. Surprise."
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09-10-2009, 04:50 AM #7
Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
I like the jack-in-the-box shooting sort of. Think of it as simulating just tucking in your head a bit when enemy fire is coming in, without fully changing your stance. You could then hold your gun in the same position basically, and ust lifting your head a bit would align you with the scope again. I believe this is how soldier in real life fire from cover, but it is not in the game. Changing stance hence is the best approximation of what you would actually do in a firefight instinctively.
Sometimes I wonder when people will be happy with the shooting dynamics, specifically about the stances. The human body and its movements are so complex, that the BF2 engine's 3 stances, and the inability to really use cover to stabilize your weapon, can never really provide a good metaphor for real life.
If they change this stance thing with another magical delay it will just create another perceived problem. In fact, I think I can predict it. Prone diving will go up again, because a new penalty for "crouch to standing" will make the penalty on going prone less effective and thus the prone diving technique more effective.
Then the prone diving delay will have to be upped. This then creates a nice feedback loop and in the end, when your prone, you'll fall asleep on the comfy ground before your accuracy allows you to hit the broad side of a barn
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Maybe there is room for improvement, but there is a time in a mod's lifespan where one just has to accept the quirks of the specific game engine.What it's like to play online games as a grown-up:http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-i...e_gaming/1.jpg
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09-10-2009, 04:48 PM #8
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
I sometimes use this when firing from cover, but when I do I try to stand up pop lets say 3 shots off then go back into cover,(more with an auto rifle) wait a few seconds and repeat. I see it as the only realistic and effective way to shoot from cover atm. If people spam the crouch button and their bodies just go up and down then it does get annoying and unrealistic but not much that we can do or the DEVs that I know of. If it was possible it would be nice to see a little bit of deviation added when you change positions(other than prone which has it now) but not so much you have to wait another 3 seconds.
It would be nice if only a small amount of deviation was added when you move your charecter a few meters like paine said but I have no clue if thats possible either.
The way thing are now aren't perfect but between the deviation and different stances I think its the best we are going to get.|TG-69th|chrisweb89
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09-10-2009, 05:00 PM #9
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
I want to cut jacks head off ! I hate people doing it.
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09-10-2009, 06:42 PM #10
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
I blame the whiskey. Originally Posted by Paine
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09-10-2009, 08:02 PM #11
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
Just wondering what do we all consider jack in the box?
I would consider it just spamming the crouch button so your character goes up and down faster than possible and is really hard to shoot.|TG-69th|chrisweb89
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09-10-2009, 08:31 PM #12
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
Originally Posted by chrisweb89
I think its considered hiding behind a hard cover/soft cover while crouched but while standing you have a claer sight.And spamming as waiting for your deviation to settle and then just pop up hitting everything.
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09-10-2009, 09:00 PM #13
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
Wait... seriously? I thought this was in regards to prone diving. I didn't realize we were hating on people who effectively use cover. Originally Posted by orpal
Maybe I still don't understand, but doesn't it make sense to stand behind something and fire until someone starts shooting at you, and then duck for cover from incoming bullets?
Standing/Crouch spamming to dodge bullets is only effective if you can't shoot them in the knees. Otherwise 5 or 6 shots aimed at the knees should effectively eliminate your target, either through leg shots or center mass when crouched. If they're behind cover, flanking and/or heavy explosives could be employed to compromise the position and kill or force your opponent to flee, but that's the same deal with any confrontation with enemies behind cover.
If I crouch for 5 seconds while everybody shoots at me and then pop up to try and pick off one of the shooters, only to go back behind cover when everyone starts shooting at me again... to me that's just effective use of cover. Countermeasure would include smoke and displace or suppressing fire tactics.
Prone diving baaaaaad. Use of cover and concealment gooood. As long as everyone remembers that concealment does not equal cover.
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09-10-2009, 11:10 PM #14
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
Its a method that results from the deviation system. Hide behind object, take note of target position, stand and fire 1 very accurate shot, repeat.
You lost negligible accuracy when changing stances. You completely or very nearly reset your accuracy when you step in any direction.
The 2 extremes in deviation make jackinthebox very popular.
I don't like it.|TG-12th| Namebot
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09-10-2009, 11:10 PM #15
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Re: Jack-in-the-Box deviation
Jack-in-the-box, as far as I am concerned, refers to the lack of deviation increase when swapping from crouched to standing, and is almost entirely caused by the fact that your crosshair remains in the spot it was before changing stance. Even if changing stances resulted in a deviation change, it would not be entirely fixed.
This allows the jack-in-the-box technique which involves aiming at an enemy, crouching, waiting for your deviation to settle, then rising and crouching in succession firing off shots when standing. This allows someone to pop up, fire off a shot which is at maximum accuracy, with no ill effects, kill a player, and then crouch again to avoid being hit. This is usually done entirely within a single second of time, allowing for a very quick kill with virtually no way to stop the shot.
The issue, again, is caused by the fact that a players crosshair doesn't move at all when you change stance; if your crosshair was randomly moved every time you stood up, when this issue would be nonexistant due to the fact that the player would have to realign his shot before he could shoot, and get back down, greatly increasing the amount of time he is exposed.
With it, it allows players to crouch-stand in rapid succession while firing only while standing, and only minimally changing their aim only to account for recoil. This not only presents the problem that the player is just hard to hit since he only needs to expose himself for a split-second, but also because the bf2 hitbox has to account for this and will often confuse the player in his attempt to hit the offender.
I believe it is an exploit of the game engine, and should be frowned upon by TG if done in rapid succession. Crouching, standing, and then firing off a few shots before getting back into cover is one thing, and realistic; making movements that are nearly physically impossible or that directly affects the ability of someone to hit you (hitbox-wise, not just being hard to hit), is another.
(Also, just incase anyone is wondering, stand-crouch can be altered to crouch-prone and have the same effect; and this effect is only useful when behind crouch/prone cover that allows you to fire when standing).
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