Re: Rule change required?

**Celestial1** · 09-18-2009, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by snooggums

As diposable says, if the main base is off limits, it is off limits, no matter the reason. The chopper pilots were above or flying towards the main base at round end, not inside the base. And as you said, you aren't trying to argue past events right?

No, they landed inside pointing the helicopter towards the camera. It was literally the same thing as the warrior event besides the fact that, well, it's a flying vehicle that doesn't have a gun. They just land the helicopter and let the Dome of Death kill them off, the vehicle stays, viola. Regardless:

The point I'm entirely trying to make is that maybe people who are moving into the Basrah Mosque main base AT ALL whether it be baserape, endround screenshot, etc etc, are kicked or temporarily banned for entering the base at all, no ifs ands or buts.

This way, we will have no more of these issues on Basrah, and no one will have to review a BR file, they will simply have to ask for names over chat in the next round or ask through mumble/etc to get an answer from the team in question, and then perform the appropriate action.

I'm trying to make the admins job easier by suggesting that this action be wholly discouraged and frowned upon, instead of being looked at as a baserape issue, and simply be able to dispose of the player from the server entirely. The player learns their lesson and can come back, great, they won't be causing the issue again.

(The only reason I at all mention the helicopter issue or any other thing is to try to stop any punishment from being dealt to the players who did the act this time due to it being unprecedented in this manner; it's only been done by the transport helicopters previously on the map, and because those didn't have guns/seemed 'harmless', pilots were not punished for doing so. Now that the helicopter is gone from the map entirely, this will happen less however vehicles doing this might increase. Instead of needing to look at the BR file when some numbnuts goes and drives Challenger into the Mosque, why not just have an admin able to contact players who would know the name of the player, and then kick/ban accordingly, instead of needing to review a BR file.)

**Donrhos** · 09-19-2009, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by llPANCHOll

Hasnt this thread run its course?
It seems to be going in circles now.

I agree. All the answers we need is in this post.

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

You're missing my point entirely, Celestial. You're justifying the actions of the Warrior and excusing it because it was the end of the round. You can cite other examples of helicopters, of timer on the dome of death, blah blah blah - it is all meaningless and I'm not buying the whole precedent thing here. It's weak.

Above all of it is the fact that it is apparently ok to violate the server rules to get a cool screenshot. This is wrong.

My position is that it doesn't matter, and what makes it worse it that it wasted my time investigating this in the first place. I wasn't investigating the scimitar on the rpg, either. I was reviewing the file for the actions of the warrior. The scimitar was in the right to engage the rpg as he had clearly left the safety of the mosque to engage the scimi, whether he thought he had at the time or not. On the wall or surrounding buildings is not inside the mosque. Regardless, we're going in circles here, but I think my point is pretty clear: don't enter the enemy main whether it is with 1000 tickets left or 1. Follow the rules of the server. Period.

**fuzzhead** · 09-19-2009, 10:09 AM

Well if anyone has any suggestions about the Insurgent main base (on al basrah or ramiel) then Im all ears.

They need a fixed spawn point to fall back on, putting it in the middle of the city seems to create a lot of these scenarios, and putting it on the edge of the city seems to create the same problem. Its hard to fix these solution without a major overhaul on the game mode / maps.

**snooggums** · 09-19-2009, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzhead

Well if anyone has any suggestions about the Insurgent main base (on al basrah or ramiel) then Im all ears.

They need a fixed spawn point to fall back on, putting it in the middle of the city seems to create a lot of these scenarios, and putting it on the edge of the city seems to create the same problem. Its hard to fix these solution without a major overhaul on the game mode / maps.

I liked the old palace, but the cache spawns would have to be removed and the bridges being blown stopped all the vehicles from being used after the game started. Maybe the compound on the SW edge of town?

**Axis_Sniper** · 09-19-2009, 01:02 PM

I find a problem with changing the insurgent main in Basrah: The Mosque. Once that compound is up for grabs, it's basically gonna become a flag in AAS. If a cache spawns in it then it's gonna be hell for Blufor to kill it without mortar. If Blufor has a hold of it then it's gonna be hell for Insurgents if caches spawn close to it, or on it. It's such a huge, easily defendable compound, that it's gonna have a 10x bigger impact on games then Eagles Nest in Operation Archer, and Outpost in Korengal.

**Riffraffselbow** · 09-21-2009, 05:05 AM

I've always interpreted the rule like this:
Insurgents in the Mosque, or near any entrances/exits, or (as with Basrah's bike spawn) in auxilliary alleys directly adjacent to it, are not to be engaged unless both of the following conditions are met:
1) You can guarantee that only the target in question will be injured
2) You can guarantee that the target in question has made a direct hostile action within the last 5 or so seconds; waiting 2 minutes for a guy to pop his head up after sniping at someone is not okay.

the "target in question" can be an individual, in which case 1) limits damage to only the individual. If the target is in a vehicle, the damage should be targeted at the vehicle, or the perpetrator in the vehicle, it's a fielder's choice.

I feel this is a fairly high standard regarding it, and I, when playing as an insurgent, accept being killed when this standard is met.

What I do have a problem with is HEAT shells etc, which cause collateral damage. Shooting the RPGer is fine, hitting the 5 guys standing next to him is not, unless it seems they are standing next to him with the intent of being collateral damage, so as to dissuade the gunner from firing (commonly known as "human shield" tactics, esp. when applied with collaborators). Still, if it is possible, the BLUFOR member should attempt to minimize collateral damage.

Edit: Having read the quoted rule on page 1, this is now invalid. I'm leaving it for posterity, and because it still stands for me with regards to Conventional UCBs

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 09-21-2009, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by fuzzhead

Well if anyone has any suggestions about the Insurgent main base (on al basrah or ramiel) then Im all ears.

They need a fixed spawn point to fall back on, putting it in the middle of the city seems to create a lot of these scenarios, and putting it on the edge of the city seems to create the same problem. Its hard to fix these solution without a major overhaul on the game mode / maps.

I think that mosque is fine as a main and there is nothing wrong with it's location. It has exits on at least 3 side, probably 4 (can't specifically remember), allowing egress in any direction. The height of the walls prevents most attacks into the mosque itself. I guess the real problem is exiting on the west side of the mosque into the main street. With the ability of the armor to sit north of Basrah and the zoom capability of that armor, it is entirely likely that most insurgents will be cut down trying to move west to defend a cache or whatever reason they're moving that direction. The exits on the other sides are covered by buildings and allow the insurgents to move about the city easily enough.

The problem from the other night started because the insurgents have access to the top of the walls surrounding the mosque as well as the immediately adjacent rooftops. The insurgents use these areas to spot enemy movements and fire on the BluFor team when they are positioned north of the city. In these positions, the insurgents can also receive fire, although there is some confusion as to the actual boundaries of the mosque area, which is what caused the problems.

This leads us to the real problem: Clear definition of what is part of the "main" or "Mosque" (and therefore off-limits) and what is not. Without publishing drawings of each map and drawing a red line surrounding what is off-limits, it is impossible to clearly define those areas. To be honest, I don't think any of us want to do that in the first place. The rule of thumb should just be that when you're in doubt about whether you should fire somewhere or go somewhere, don't do it and try to get clarification when you can. In these cases, err on the side of caution.

**Startrekern** · 09-21-2009, 12:34 PM

I don't believe moving the insurgents' main base on the map is the answer. It is fine where it is, and the Mosque makes perfect sense.

Just put walls up, like on Karbala, that block the exits of the mosque to outside fire. If you leave those walls, you're fair game. Simple.

**chrisweb89** · 09-21-2009, 04:43 PM

The Karbala mosques that I'm familiar only have a few entraces/exits and can easily be camped, the Basrah mosque offers much more protection for spawning insurgents and for them when they leave.

I say leave the mosques where they are and how they are built. Thanks for the clarification too that standing on the walls surrounding many of the mosques doesn't count as the mosque and can be engaged.

Delta*RandyShugart* · 09-21-2009, 05:34 PM

I don't want to beat a horse that has already been trampled and beaten to death but below is an image, I found of the Al Basrah Mosque on Moddb.com as seen through the cockpit of the little bird from .7 or .8.

The walls which you see are apart of the Mosque. It has been my understanding since this rule was implemented in November of last year that anyone on these ledges attached to the walls shown can fire out, and cannot be fired upon since they are still part of the Mosque.
*Note the walls shown are on the Eastern, North Eastern, and South Eastern side, though they do exist on the Western, North Western and South Western sides as well*

Now here is a birds eye view of Al Basrah:

You can see buildings adjoined to the Mosque as residential dormitories of sorts (Its a theory), on the West, North and South entrances.

**LeadMagnet** · 09-21-2009, 06:13 PM

With your version of the rules 2/3 of the city can be engaged from those walls or rooftops without fear of reprisal? Sounds a bit asinine to me.

**d1sp0sabl3H3r0** · 09-21-2009, 06:13 PM

I'm so sick of this stuff. You guys all try to find loopholes and exploits in the rules so you can shoot people and not worry about being shot back at, or if you are then it's "Admin! Admin!"

Want a funny screenshot? Go ahead and enter the main, the rules don't matter. But as soon as someone else does it and you're on the other side of the story it's suddenly "!Reporting Enemy warrior baserape".

Give me a freaking break already!

**Dreadnought** · 09-21-2009, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

Give me a freaking break already!

I'll break you off a piece of my kit-kat bar any day dispo... if you know what I mean.

**BigGaayAl** · 09-22-2009, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

In these cases, err on the side of caution.

Wise advice, and the solution no TG-er should ever think twice of choosing. Clans have rules, this is maturity.

If everybody kept this in mind, there would be much less heated discussions about the rules. Might I say, even productive ones.

**fuzzhead** · 09-22-2009, 01:22 PM

as developer, we trying to design the maps to see as little of this situation as possible as we know how frustrating it can be to have to uphold rules that players will undoubtedly exploit and bend in their favor whenever they can, causing needless bickering.

future maps have this in mind but existing ones are hard to change... at least I think the situation has improved quite a bit from before where main bases had flags right next to the spawnpoints and spawn rape was a valid tactic... thankfully at least that is mostly erradicated except for certain maps

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