No rally point feedback thread - PR .874b

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

This is the problem with your argument. Many (if not most) SLs don't have the luxury of trusting their team-mates in an average game of PR.

So your argument is that other players suck so the change won't work??

I need a better argument against mine that just because you have to spawn where someone else (maybe, maybe you deployed it) has deployed a FOB that all is lost for PR and it's not fun anyone. I mean, what did everyone do before when their rally went down? Spawn at main? Let's get real here. Did players forget how to deploy FOBs when the ability to drop a rally was taken away?

Arguing that you are at someone elses mercy to spawn because of this change and that you cannot do as you wish anymore is just crazy. Why can't you take your squad off and do a flanking maneuver somewhere? Why do you have to stick with everyone in a blob? Is everyone forgetting that if you defeat the enemy squad they won't be back anytime soon?? After all, they don't have rallies 100m away to rush you 30 seconds after you kill the first one. Move as a unit, use tactics, use suppressing fire and win. The one thing that this changes brings: when you win a fire fight, you really win it.

[Alpha_s9]

This is precisely the sort of thing I was not referring to, I was referring to small unit inf tactics, i.e. single 6 man squad tactics as opposed to platoon/blob formations, not lone wolf stuff I would like to see the game prevent.

I'm just pointing out that a two man "specialist" squad can still contribute to the team without directly relying on them. With the frontline mentality I've seen, it can be much easier to get two guys around the enemy without being noticed than it can with 6. This is map dependent of course.

Once you're around the enemy, it gives you unique firing opportunities that allow you to assist squads as they push into enemy that is behind cover.

Without rallies, if the guys behind the lines know where most of the relevant firebases are they can avoid getting overrun... something that was much less possible when rallies were a factor.

[DiscoJedi]

One thing I've noticed on Muttrah in particular, is how the MEC team seems to do a better job of concentrating forces. I find that a 6 man infantry squad on the US, no matter how coordinated, will usually fall prey to much larger formations of MEC forces. The simple lesson here seems to be as follows...

When PR removed the ability to spawn on flags and later Squad Leaders, it changed the focus of the game from the individual, to the individual squad. In removing the squad rally point, the focus seems to be shifting away from the individual squad, and onto the multi-squad coordinated unit.

[Skud]

So your argument is that other players suck so the change won't work??

I need a better argument against mine that just because you have to spawn where someone else (maybe, maybe you deployed it) has deployed a FOB that all is lost for PR and it's not fun anyone. I mean, what did everyone do before when their rally went down? Spawn at main? Let's get real here. Did players forget how to deploy FOBs when the ability to drop a rally was taken away?

FOB's are now substitutes for Rally points. The team doesn't assault a flag without a good FOB now. Now, instead of defeating and finding the rally the defenders face 3/4 of the team in a mass infantry blob. God forbid that the DEV's fix the AR kit system, because if you have 20 soldiers, you have at least 4 SAW's/ARs without any overheat...

And say the defenders hold on - well too bad, because that 3/4 of the team now has intel on you and just spawned in.

With Rally Points, coordination was an effort. 1 Squad would put their Rally to the south of the obj, and the other to the east, and then they would move in. But with FOB's, since players are hardcoded, they're going to just run STRAIGHT from the FOB to the obj. But they'll have 15 other dudes to run with! That's coordination, right?

Nope. It's a blob of INF, who eventually overpower their advisories by sheer bullet per cubic foot. Just a walking line of bullets and grenades, really.

Arguing that you are at someone elses mercy to spawn because of this change and that you cannot do as you wish anymore is just crazy. Why can't you take your squad off and do a flanking maneuver somewhere? Why do you have to stick with everyone in a blob? Is everyone forgetting that if you defeat the enemy squad they won't be back anytime soon?? After all, they don't have rallies 100m away to rush you 30 seconds after you kill the first one. Move as a unit, use tactics, use suppressing fire and win. The one thing that this changes brings: when you win a fire fight, you really win it.

No, you really can't do as you want anymore - you don't have the luxory of a spawn facilitated to your needs. You have the entire freakin team. If the FOB is in a crappy spot - oh well! Sucks to be you! Don't want to spawn at the FOB? Too bad, main is that way. Or, on the off chance your team is doing well, you may have one 500m THAT WAY.

Say I want to defend a bridge, but don't have crates right now. We're kinda isolated, but we're just monitoring a bridge to make sure no pesky vehicles sneak by. We don't need a fortress... well 2 people get DC'd during the round. Well, gee, they gotta walk 500m from main. Or from another FB.

Man, should have built that FOB! Should have created a spawn where johnny-7 shot one kill-sniper could have spawned! Should have spent time shoveling, putting dust in the air, giving away the element of surprise to any casual passer-by...

Or say one of us got TK'd, and was "dead dead" Well, too bad. You should have thought about that ahead of time and put a FOB up incase someone is ever dead-dead.

Skud relies on transport for a whole day...
-A short story by Skud, on transport ideas.

Yeah, get in with leetsepcops99. You know what the 99 stands for? The year he was probably born. Hmmm, well, we managed to get in the air, after almost flipping, but I'll forgive that for now... Hey, where are you going? Are you on mumble leetspecops99? Hello? This isn't where I want to go!
*types in team chat*
*keeps typing*
And all around me, this great aura of heat rounds and tracers. Well, my squad is 3/4 dead, and the chopper was shot down before he dropped a crate. Flip a coin whether or not I would really GET that crate anyway.
And I'm down! 6 tickets lost plus whatever the pilot and the chopper cost the team.

OK, I'll get in with this APC this time. No worries.
LeetDude42'd is just barely out of your main with a HAT. He's not really breaking any rules, but it's borderline. He's probably part of a 2 man squad with a sniper and a HAT.
OK, riding in the APC now. And everythings black, and my squad is all dead.

Well, we're 0 and 12 now! Like golf, you should keep that number high. Or is it low? Hmm...

OK, I'll get a technical. Oh who am I kidding - unless you're US or INS/Chechan, you don't get technicals! That would just encourage lone wolfing! Nobody ever used vodniks, humvees, or nanjings for anything but leet sniper stuff anyway. Nobody. They were never used effectively in scrimmages, never delegated in them either. Right?

OK, last straw, we're walking to where I want to go. It'll be a long walk but I'm cool with that - I like to talk with my squad mates anyway.

"How was your day wickens?"
"Oh mate it was quite alright I'd say..."
"You know I was reading this article about the SF in Afgh-... "

A few things may happen here:

1. Randomly shot by a SAW.
2. Ran over.
3. Can't hear what I'm saying due to the huge INF blob blabbing on mumble about their latest bathroom escapade and what their mom is making for lunch.

OK, so we get to where I wanted to go! That's a step ahead of last time... Now, spawnpoints... Ok, the entire team was pushed back to main.

The end.


Players are hardcoded.

[Dick Blonov]

After giving it a fair shake, I can't say it's a move I agree with.

The playerbase is not ready.

Maybe the DEVs want another playerbase. Casual players need not apply.


DB

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

So, which is worse? All of the examples of how your game is ruined through the incompetence or borderline raping of others, or the fact that when you defend a flag it is pretty apparent that you will eventually lose that flag because the un-ending horde simply overruns you? What is better? Hunting for rallies to stop the attacks or defeating your opponents once?

Example: My squad was defending one of the bunkers on Kashan when we had a transport helo deposit a squad on the roof. Our problem here was the fact that we had no FOB to spawn on anywhere near our location, so if we lost we really lost. After an intense, pitched battle inside the bunker we emerged victorious as myself and another squad member managed to kill off the attackers, get their medic kit and revive my squad. Nice story, right? Know what so nice about it? The fact that those 6 enemy soldiers did not return 30 seconds later to surely defeat my squad and take the bunker flag because they had the advantage of dropping a pile of bags outside before they stormed the bunker. Nope - they were vanquished once and for all.

All of the other examples of the horrors of relying on your teammates aren't valid because those apply whether you have a rally point or not. The worthless pilot, the baseraping HAT, the whateveryouwanttoblameasthedownfallofprbecauseyoud onthavearally are all meaningless examples that have nothing to do with rally points but instead the things that happen to everyone, every day, playing PR on our server or any other. At least on our server you can count on most of your teammates knowing what the heck they're doing.

As I said previously, the maps and the loadouts of assets on maps are wrong for this test. There isn't enough transportation and some maps just simply are not suited for no rally points due to terrain, lack of cover or flag layouts. These can all be addressed.

As for this change, it's been less than a week. I've seen some really great games after the change and I've seen some really bad games. Personally, I've not really been impacted in a negative way by this change, and I'd like to think that these changes have made me a better SL and a better player simply because I had to adapt to overcome the safety net that a RP provides. Hopefully after this month is over we'll be able to provide enough feedback, both positive and negative, to help those responsible for developing this game to make an informed decision on how to take the game forward, whatever that means.

[Sabre_Tooth_Tigger]

Archer seems playable, I think any big map is pretty much. US won 142-0 and this was the grid for alot of the game, the main base had a taliban hideout 100m away on a hill.
I think the main advantage was alot of crates and firebases setup early in the game at good intervals




Our squad didnt die much so thats why Im reporting back positively I guess. RP only matters that much for respawns after all
That makes me biased in favour of this change because Ive always liked trying to get very low deaths in a game

[Startrekern]

If this change is removed from TG after the month is over, sad pandas will rain from the sky and bleed from my heart.

Please leave it.

[TMan]

As for this change, it's been less than a week. I've seen some really great games after the change and I've seen some really bad games. Personally, I've not really been impacted in a negative way by this change, and I'd like to think that these changes have made me a better SL and a better player simply because I had to adapt to overcome the safety net that a RP provides. Hopefully after this month is over we'll be able to provide enough feedback, both positive and negative, to help those responsible for developing this game to make an informed decision on how to take the game forward, whatever that means.

Either way, it is interesting to test out. I appreciate the opportunity to try it out and will keep doing it, providing feedback whenever possible. It is really cool to be the beta test server in any scenario as it has changed game play - something different.

Thanks for moderating and setting this up d1sp0sabl3H3r0. Great comments from both perspectives.

[snooggums]

I don't like the crate seeding of maps with air assets. Rain down those crates, you may need them in the future!

I want the support to be involved but I just don't think the current FOB building requirement (crates) is going to work if this change is permanent.

Make the FOB requirement 6 (or more) soldiers in 25m and require a crate or two for additional structures like AA and Machine guns. Stop the one man ninja FOBs and still allow building them anywhere on a map for spawning.

Love being able to actually knock an enemy off a flag long enough to cap, clearly some maps will need adjustments.

[Bullseye2550]

Skud relies on transport for a whole day...
-A short story by Skud, on transport ideas.

Yeah, get in with leetsepcops99. You know what the 99 stands for? The year he was probably born. Hmmm, well, we managed to get in the air, after almost flipping, but I'll forgive that for now... Hey, where are you going? Are you on mumble leetspecops99? Hello? This isn't where I want to go!
*types in team chat*
*keeps typing*
And all around me, this great aura of heat rounds and tracers. Well, my squad is 3/4 dead, and the chopper was shot down before he dropped a crate. Flip a coin whether or not I would really GET that crate anyway.
And I'm down! 6 tickets lost plus whatever the pilot and the chopper cost the team.

OK, I'll get in with this APC this time. No worries.
LeetDude42'd is just barely out of your main with a HAT. He's not really breaking any rules, but it's borderline. He's probably part of a 2 man squad with a sniper and a HAT.
OK, riding in the APC now. And everythings black, and my squad is all dead.

Well, we're 0 and 12 now! Like golf, you should keep that number high. Or is it low? Hmm...

OK, I'll get a technical. Oh who am I kidding - unless you're US or INS/Chechan, you don't get technicals! That would just encourage lone wolfing! Nobody ever used vodniks, humvees, or nanjings for anything but leet sniper stuff anyway. Nobody. They were never used effectively in scrimmages, never delegated in them either. Right?

OK, last straw, we're walking to where I want to go. It'll be a long walk but I'm cool with that - I like to talk with my squad mates anyway.

"How was your day wickens?"
"Oh mate it was quite alright I'd say..."
"You know I was reading this article about the SF in Afgh-... "

A few things may happen here:

1. Randomly shot by a SAW.
2. Ran over.
3. Can't hear what I'm saying due to the huge INF blob blabbing on mumble about their latest bathroom escapade and what their mom is making for lunch.

OK, so we get to where I wanted to go! That's a step ahead of last time... Now, spawnpoints... Ok, the entire team was pushed back to main.

The end.


Players are hardcoded.

then dont play like that, step up as commander, get the things sorted out, move together with firepower then you will survive.

use your TEAM, i think that is what the DEVs want, and i want that too.

another suggestion: make the spawntimer at the beginning 5 min instead of 3 so there can be a quick organization at the beginning of a round.

PS: you can also report for spamming mumble

[Jevski]

One thing I think that has been forgotten is that this is the TG server. Skud is right in my opinion.
Having FB only works to a point on TG & T&T up to a point. But try to play this way on a less, sorry to use the word, elite server and see what happends.
Since you play during the US hours most of the regulars are playing and the teamwork is good.

But yes, what does the players have to do with it right? Having FB only only works if the whole team is coordinated. Ive tried playing on T&T during early EU hours and it was horrible. No one building FB, unless you do it yourself.

Seeing players spawning on FB and run off without helping.
Players spawning and start camping on the fb with a sniper or Saw.
Running off in a straight line, alone from the FB.
Apcs being used as light tanks, not transporting anyone.
And when no Fb present you gonna see alot of 1manning trucks, hummers etc. driving out of main only to be ditched somewhere.

Try it. Play on hours you usualy dont play, on a server you dont frequent, and see what happens

Yes on TG server with the right players, its great with the beta, but we have to remember this is still a game and not everyone takes it as seriously as others.

A very few players can ruin the whole game for the majority now and unless your playing on a server with 24 hours admin coverage, you may as well find another server.
Going CO, does not help, you will get ignored, asking for others to build fb the same.

And bullseye.

*use your TEAM, i think that is what the DEVs want, and i want that too.*

What to do when your team isnt interested in being used?

/Jev

[johnflenaly]

One thing I think that has been forgotten is that this is the TG server. Skud is right in my opinion.
Having FB only works to a point on TG & T&T up to a point. But try to play this way on a less, sorry to use the word, elite server and see what happends.
Since you play during the US hours most of the regulars are playing and the teamwork is good.

But yes, what does the players have to do with it right? Having FB only only works if the whole team is coordinated. Ive tried playing on T&T during early EU hours and it was horrible. No one building FB, unless you do it yourself.

Seeing players spawning on FB and run off without helping.
Players spawning and start camping on the fb with a sniper or Saw.
Running off in a straight line, alone from the FB.
Apcs being used as light tanks, not transporting anyone.
And when no Fb present you gonna see alot of 1manning trucks, hummers etc. driving out of main only to be ditched somewhere.

Try it. Play on hours you usualy dont play, on a server you dont frequent, and see what happens

Yes on TG server with the right players, its great with the beta, but we have to remember this is still a game and not everyone takes it as seriously as others.

A very few players can ruin the whole game for the majority now and unless your playing on a server with 24 hours admin coverage, you may as well find another server.
Going CO, does not help, you will get ignored, asking for others to build fb the same.

And bullseye.

*use your TEAM, i think that is what the DEVs want, and i want that too.*

What to do when your team isnt interested in being used?

/Jev

I'm sorry how does having a RP system improve play on these so called no elite servers. People still use apcs as light tanks, still ignore co orders, still wont place fb, still one manning assets. The only diffrence is instead of tard rushing off the nearest firebase they join a squad and tard rush off the ralley point. There is no improvement in gameplay.

The arguments I'm hearing against the new system boil down to and "Before I could do what ever the hell I wanted to now I have to use TEAMWORK, how dare you".

[Jevski]

No John those who say that are excatly those who makes it harder to use teamwork. The difference is now, if the team does not teamwork, the squads that want to teamwork are at the mercy of those who drive the apcs, not building fb etc.

And in regards to the tard rushing off the rallypoint. I would have influence, if it was my rally point he would rush of from.....*kick*

With a rally the other squads would be able to work indepentdetly from them, now they cant.

A few players can ruin the game.

Game starts. 2 players grap a sniper, and a third a marksman. Takes all Supply trucks to find a place to start sniping. These players now ditches, or gets the trucks destroyed.
Now what?
I want to use teamwork, how can I? I would be less f****** with the ability to set a rally.

[bjoffe]

You know what i think would be interesting? Each post containing an estimate of how much time testing was put into the feedback provided.. Not aimed at anyone in particular, but just having opinions on various subjects is very easy, and so is jumping to biased conclusions.

I've only played ~20 hours, far from enough to make a solid opinion. So far i totally dig it, but i keep playing the same maps over and over - and wish the maplist would change alot more so more maps could be evaluated. Maybe im just unlucky or got bad timing.
However, as a negative, i somehow feel like they removed SL-spawn, and kept APC-spawn. To use "old" metaphors.

More to come. In due time.