No rally point feedback thread - PR .874b

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

I'm confused by the arguments that the system is flawed because players are concerned about the lack of teamwork on other servers. How much time do the regular TG players spend on other servers exactly? I'd wager little to none.

How about this angle: The 3 servers selected to host the beta test are known to be "elite" teamwork servers. They attract almost every PR player out "there" who are aware of the changes either via reading the RealityMod site or from word of mouth of their friends on other servers. Those players come to TG to check out the changes and end up in a squad lead by a TG regular. Those players are introduced to how we do things here and really enjoy it, and they begin to play the game a little differently now. Those same players continue to come back to TG, and when they can't get on they go back to their servers to play, but the difference is is that now they play the game a little differently. This rubs on off their friends, and pretty soon the whole level of play is raised in the entire community because of the exposure these players get to the teamwork that occurs daily on the 3 servers that are the beta hosts.

You know what else? I've had a ton of new faces in my squads that I've never, ever seen on TG before during the testing period. It turns out that most, if not all, of these players are pretty damn good PR players and understand teamwork and play it right. I don't think it's as bad as people think on other servers and I think we need to stop thinking that TG is the only server capable of handling this change and adapting to it if it becomes a permanent part of PR in the future.

[Jevski]

Dispo, right now you are judging the changes from the view you are getting from playing on TG only. If these changes gets in the final version its all servers that will change.

Have you tried to play on other servers?

Why do you assume that TG'ers dont play on other servers?

Instead of assuming that the teamwork on others server equals TG, go play. Play during the EU hours, play on different servers not just T&T. Then you will get a feel of the general PR player whos not a regular at TG.

A system is only as flawed, as the users using it

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

Why should I play on other servers? I support this community financially, I support this community through donating a ton of my hours by being an admin, and I have a lot of friends here. I don't care to play on another server. Thank you. Regardless of all of that, how would my playing on other servers that do not have this change in place currently help me to evaluate the change? I don't understand that. If it is to experience bad teamwork and stupidity then no thank you. I already know how to play the game with the ability to set a rally point, so that isn't a valid reason, either.

Let's try to keep one thing in mind here: We are to play-test the lack of RPs and help to determine if that system works or not. We can speculate how those changes will impact the PR community as a whole, but speculation is a whole different thing from actually playing the game and seeing first-hand the impact it has. Whether we think these changes won't work on other servers or not doesn't really matter, does it? We can really only form solid, factual feedback based on our experiences playing with the changed system on one of the 3 servers involved in the test. Everything else is just speculation and has no relevance to the test itself.

[EDIT] BTW - I'm very stubborn, I realize [/EDIT]

[bjoffe]

This mod has never aimed at pleasing the masses, what's so different with change from eg. removing SL-spawn etc? Other server's handled those changes, but the servers with best ingame leadership handled, and still handles it, best.

Side note. T&T used to an elite server. It hasnt been populated in ages, and still with the beta is sitting empty almost every evening. Euro continent is has a real teamwork vacuum after TB, iGi and T&T, and last RT, one by one disappeared, and i think the reason for choosing this was [r-dev]epoch running it.

[Jevski]

Dispo, then go play on T&T EU hours and you may get the point. Right now im getting the feeling that your judging the PR community from the perspective of the TG sever only.

[Googol]

I've been absolutely loving the change and have had a blast in most of the games I've played. The coordination can really be stellar at times and defeat isn't annoying because, most of the time, the coordination and teamwork was still present. In terms of teamwork and idealism, the lack of RPs is a step in the right direction for PR.

However, there are still some major flaws. The real argument here seems to be over "squad independence". As SLs, we must really rely on eachother and the use of coordination to gain any headway. Disposable, you say that the newer players you've been seeing are great. I personally think that this first week of the beta has been attracting those PR players who are die-hard teamwork junkies. TG seems to be the best server out of the other two and thus will likely attract the better players.

In an average game of PR, however, I doubt that the same level of leadership and teamwork-oriented players is present compared to the past couple nights. The removal of rallies really removes the whole 'squad vs squad' gameplay which PR has been advertising for so long. I personally haven't had too many issues keeping my squad together (I suspect that's because I tend to be lucky enough to have regulars in my squad who are intelligent enough to know when to hold spawn), but I have definatley seen alot of fragmented squads around the map in the past couple days. This was especially noticeable on a game of kozelsk and it just made the map agonizingly slow. As Wickens pointed out, one doesn't necessarily always want to play a slow, ArmA like experience.

What I'm trying to say is not that I'm necessarily against the removal of rallies. However, it's become aparrent that other changes in gameplay will be necessary to actually make this work. Also, I think what Jevsky is trying to point out is that a change such as this is going to affect the entire PR community, not just at TG.

[BloodAce]

You know what else? I've had a ton of new faces in my squads that I've never, ever seen on TG before during the testing period. It turns out that most, if not all, of these players are pretty damn good PR players and understand teamwork and play it right. I don't think it's as bad as people think on other servers and I think we need to stop thinking that TG is the only server capable of handling this change and adapting to it if it becomes a permanent part of PR in the future.

Thanks Disposable for that comment I'm very glad that some finally notice that

I am reading every comments in this thread since beginning of this BETA test and I was surprised that so many well known TG players believe that they are ( plus their team mates from TG) the only ones who know how to play Project Reality which is after all only a simple tactical game(very far from a complicated simulation) so really there is nothing special in that guys.

You may have not noticed but there are hundreds of people (not playing on TG)who know the game system perfectly and use teamwork and communication for their advantage.
So we all should not worry about what may happen on others(non TG, T&T) servers if the new system will be introduced. I'm 100% sure that they will handle very well.

My feedback to new system is that game in fact is slower but also way more tactical and thanks to NO RP change Dev's implemented real fear of death while you far from friendly base which could not be achieved before by any suppression effect.

I'm all for this change and i hope 0.9 will come out very soon!


P.S. TG members dont take my criticism offensive because its not, I'm playing on TG quite a long and I still believe is one of the best PR server just not the only one

p.s.2 I noticed you changed your post Dispo, feel free to edit my quote if you wish so.

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

Dispo, then go play on T&T EU hours and you may get the point. Right now im getting the feeling that your judging the PR community from the perspective of the TG sever only.

Jevski, I think the misunderstanding is that I'm not judging the PR community at all, I'm simply judging the game play changes I've actually witnessed while playing on the TG server. I'm not making any assumptions on how it will impact other servers at all or on how the larger PR player base will adapt. We all know that PR is a niche community and that while PR may get a lot of attention when new releases come out the overall player base does not grow by leaps and bounds because it just doesn't appeal to everyone. Additionally, it is not our position to judge the overall impact on the community because we are not responsible for the game. Those decisions rest with the PR team and they will make that decision based on their own criteria and in how they feel the best direction of their game is to go.

That's all fine by me, because for each of us it really all boils down to this: Do we, as individuals, have fun playing this game or not? If we do, we'll continue to do so. If we don't then we won't waste our time on it when there are so many other alternatives. So again, if this change causes some players to say that enough is enough already and leave then that is their choice. For me, I can handle the change if it becomes permanent and I will continue to play PR.

At the end of the day it really is just about the individual choices we all make anyway, so I'm only going to really worry about that which I can control, which is myself and myself alone.

I think what would help this discussion going forward is to not necessarily debate one another on what we think might or might not happen to PR if this change becomes permanent, although that is still valid feedback. However, I'd also like to see us start to post up some in-game experiences we've had with this new system and contrast that against how we think it is different from our previous experiences when we had rally points and more "squad independence".

[brettwad]

Well, all in all, I believe the RP removal actually improves the game play. I played yesterday and I believe the game play was better. Squads waited at the FOB until they had their entire squad spawn, folks weren't rushing as much. Also, on Archer last night I was a SL, I returned my squad to the base to rearm and wait for folks to respawn (although this was not a lot I had a first class medic who kept us up).
Not having RP's is a pain in someways but I believe it does make the game a bit more tactical and folks start thinking about 'what happens if I die?'. Squads stay together a bit more and the medic position is more important.
I LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!

[Alpha_s9]

Well, all in all, I believe the RP removal actually improves the game play. I played yesterday and I believe the game play was better. Squads waited at the FOB until they had their entire squad spawn, folks weren't rushing as much. Also, on Archer last night I was a SL, I returned my squad to the base to rearm and wait for folks to respawn (although this was not a lot I had a first class medic who kept us up).
Not having RP's is a pain in someways but I believe it does make the game a bit more tactical and folks start thinking about 'what happens if I die?'. Squads stay together a bit more and the medic position is more important.
I LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!

Agreed 100%.

How many people here remember when they made the change from being able to spawn on SL to only being able to spawn on rallies? How many pages do you think that topic would have been (or was... not sure, i wasn't much of a forum skank back then)? Hell that was so many changes ago I barely remember trying to find somewhere to put a rally point for the first few times. (I think there was a range to objective rule or something at first) It was probably a week or two before I even found out you could take down the rallies.

Change is scary, and this particular change requires an entirely new approach to playing the game as a team. I've seen instances of great teamwork on both sides leading up to some epic firefights... and I've seen one sided games where one team's tactics end the match quickly. (Kashan 16 MEC rush to cap out last night anyone?)

Until we find tactics that work, games are gonna be sketchy. I think we'll catch our stride with this one though, and that combined with some map modifications will eventually lead to much more tactical gameplay.

On a side note... playing as MEC on Jabal last night it appeared as though we were limited to 4 firebases. Do I blame the whiskey or did anyone else notice this?

[Skud]

I'm not gonna lie, I'm sick of having to "adapt" to every change to include more "teamwork" and less leadership and skill. Now, we have 3 or 4 squads "working together" in a mass inf blob. There's no room to maneuver away from the blob because the blob is completely dependent on the blob to revive them.

Instead of saying "How can we improve the current system to include more teamwork?" the dev's only say "What can we REMOVE to FORCE team(INF BLOBS)work?"

Yeah, I'll admit that Muttrah city was fun last night, but in the end, there was no real room for actual maneuvering by the infantry.

1. Make RP's only available to squads with 5 or more in them. This stops the lonewolfing 2 and 3 man squads and forces them to either not get caught and play more wisely, or die. Also, this still allows the larger squads to defend/attack areas that don't necessarily have FB's.

2. Fix the stupid AR system. Being able to spawn in 30 seconds with a laser beam of death anywhere on the map via rally is killing INF tactics. Slowly the game has allowed each firefight to be decided by how many guys the SAW's killed. Make SAW's and AR's (In their current form) request-able again. I know this really doesn't have to do with RP's, but having 6 squads all with SAWs all over the map is tiresome - RP's allowed for this crappy gameplay, I concur.

[OT]At the very least, I'd love to see a "no frills" SAW/AR available at spawn. No 4x zoom, no scopes, no bipods. Just a SAW for the squad to use. Ironsights. No zoom. If the squad deems it necessary to upgrade to a more powerful AR for the squad, let them do it at a crate or APC. But realistically, every squad having optics on the SAW is just stupid. Ask the marines.[/OT]

3. Put a timer on how soon you can set new rallies - not just overrun. Have it be a 5 minute timer between rally sets. This forces rallies to be calculated and used as a tool, not just a dot on the screen.

4. I dislike overrunning in it's current form. While it cuts down on endless searches for spawns (which I loathe, I agree with that), there's no skill or just simple senses used. Back in the day, yes, rally point searches could be tedious. But you found them using your senses - sight and hearing. While these principles still apply, it's just a departure from something that formerly required more thought and patience than just running around with your squad...

There needs to be some adjustment to the rallypoint overrunning system - just not sure what yet.


------------------------

INS has been playing out better without rallies. I really perfer it now - although I have only played INS so far... But the firefights have been pretty good, and the Blufor must really work together and FINALLY INS has become a more enjoyable game mode because of it. Now, without rallies, the squads DO have to work together when there are 30 INS humping a cache area.

With the removal of rallies in INS, finally intel needs to be used wisely. Finally the lonewolf 2-3 man squad can't just charge off in a humvee, blow up, and lose 8 tickets for the team. Blufor will stop pissing tickets in random encounters and will start losing tickets through large engagements - which I like a lot more.

AAS: Rethink rallies. Modify them.
INS: Purge rallies. Make Blufor completely unenjoyable unless the whole team is under the same banner.

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I've been playing since .4. I was regularly squad leading before coming to TG. Upon coming to TG, I usually liked to Squad Lead. I decided I wanted to be a Devil in August 07, so I started being a squad leader full time if I wasn't able to get in a Devil's squad.

I haven't been much of a squad member since the summer of 2007. Sometimes, if I join mid round, I do. But really, 9/10 I'm an INF squad leader. I'm bossy. I'm a Bommando. I expect perfection when someone joins my squad. I spend more time with the CAPS LOCK Key open (Squad view) than I do looking down a scope. The only kit I really care about any more is the one with 3 patches and a pistol.

So I admit I'm stubborn, and put up a lot of fight to such changes. Some of you are newer here. Heck, we have a devil who didn't even play .75. .8 is all he knows. Some of you haven't seen the progression over the years. Some of you hate the G3 now, but do you remember when the US kits were horrible? They were BF2 models until... .7?

Think of the old war horses. They're old. They're pretty skeptical. Hell, they don't even know where they are half the time. They're half blind and can only eat through a tube of concentrated PR these days. They have AARP-PR memberships, start every sentence with "remember when," and used to have John CANavar screaming in their ear to deploy smoke.

So think of the big picture. Think of the progression TG has seen since the mod was introduced here before.

[Startrekern]

Going CO, does not help, you will get ignored, asking for others to build fb the same.

[...]

What to do when your team isnt interested in being used?

*cough* !reporting RandomDude disobeying CO orders
!reporting RandomDude2 disobeying CO orders


That usually helps. Lots.

[johnflenaly]

*cough* !reporting RandomDude disobeying CO orders
!reporting RandomDude2 disobeying CO orders


That usually helps. Lots.

He was referring to other servers not TG.

[Jevski]

You are missing my point. That does not work if theres no admin on, and try to spend time on different servers. What im talking about is not how the changes are on the TG server. Im talking about how it will affect PR in general. How will the gameplay be on servers where the crowd of regulars isn't as great as on TG and T&T.

As to dispos. I think it is possible to get an idea of how the tw would be on the others servers who are not running the beta.
It takes more teamwork and coordination with the beta as a team than it does with rallys. And that is something that is often missing.

But as for my own personal opinion, yes I do like the changes when playing on the right server, with the right players, but problem is it takes so little, to have the game ruined by a few players. This is the internet, theres a tard around every corner

This gameplay is best suited for scrims or clanwars, I dont think the adaptable for all servers.

[Celestial1]

I believe that rally points are what stapled PR to 'endless wave' gameplay. Removing them fixes that issue, at the small cost of needing to walk a little further, or call a transport, when you get yourself killed.

There are few times now where being killed is not your fault; now, you have ample time to set up defense and check areas before moving forward. If you don't take time to do so, you will regret it.

Really, lack of teamwork causes this change to be undesirable. As soon as teamwork gets going, things piece together well and the game is significantly more tactical and strategy based. Until then, until you take a step to talking to the team and trying to get strategy going, you will continue to be miserable; the second you speak up and get a plan going, even if it's not as commander, things will get better.