No rally point feedback thread - PR .874b

[Diligent_BF2]

Based on my play without RPs so far, I tend to agree with brettwad and Alpha's recent posts (posts #189 and #190): People take more time, and tend to value their life/ticket/medic a bit more.

I do think there is some middle room, however, toward continuing to allow what has been called here as "squad independence":


Just brainstorming here, but if you keep RPs, but make the hurdle to get them a little higher:

I like Skud's comments on making RPs require 4 or 5 people in a squad.

I might also add a requirement that ~2 squadmates need to be near the RP for others to spawn in there. (Rally at the rally point.) That, and/or a requirement that RPs either require that an active FB exist, or even exist within a certain distance of the RP.

These might put RPs in the hands of say, an INF squad that is working together, giving them a longer leash, but with the caveat that the sustained existence of those RPs requires that squad's interest in the FBs.

[I'd also suggest here that Dispo's description of the state of the TG server this month makes a great case for trying out Korengal under this test - when better to use such a challenging map? ]

[Akaz]

I might also add a requirement that ~2 squadmates need to be near the RP for others to spawn in there. (Rally at the rally point.)

Best idea i have read so far. It addresses the primary concern of single file, unending tard rush while preserving squad independence.

Adding a requirement to place RP in a certain radius to FOB could be interesting too but not sure how it will work.

[Wicks]

I believe that rally points are what stapled PR to 'endless wave' gameplay. Removing them fixes that issue, at the small cost of needing to walk a little further, or call a transport, when you get yourself killed.

There are few times now where being killed is not your fault; now, you have ample time to set up defense and check areas before moving forward. If you don't take time to do so, you will regret it.

Really, lack of teamwork causes this change to be undesirable. As soon as teamwork gets going, things piece together well and the game is significantly more tactical and strategy based. Until then, until you take a step to talking to the team and trying to get strategy going, you will continue to be miserable; the second you speak up and get a plan going, even if it's not as commander, things will get better.

Spawning in waves off an RP as one squad is different to potentially a whole team spawning off a firebase and repeatedly rushing the flag how? How is that better or more tactical. Also the suggestion that anyone who doesn't like the change simply needs to get tactical and or give it longer is a rude. Let's not belittle peoples points of view soley on the basis that you believe you know better or whats best for them. The new system has merits and I am sure we will all keep experimenting, but a lot of the people identifying issues they currently have with the system are experienced players. I would suggest their opinions have some merits. Intmiating that those unhappy with the system lack teamwork is without merit.

Its as if when we had RP's nobody round here played tactically.

I for one will keep playing and trying it out and adjusting and, whilst initially sceptical, try to keep an open mind.

[TMan]

Dispo, right now you are judging the changes from the view you are getting from playing on TG only. If these changes gets in the final version its all servers that will change.

Have you tried to play on other servers?

Why do you assume that TG'ers dont play on other servers?

Instead of assuming that the teamwork on others server equals TG, go play. Play during the EU hours, play on different servers not just T&T. Then you will get a feel of the general PR player whos not a regular at TG.

A system is only as flawed, as the users using it

I agree that this mod will not work as well on other servers. The TG server is probably and hopefully the best on the grid, and I suspect the best players play here. I don't know if the test here will reflect the overall PR worldwide community.

[DiscoJedi]

Based on my play without RPs so far, I tend to agree with brettwad and Alpha's recent posts (posts #189 and #190): People take more time, and tend to value their life/ticket/medic a bit more.

I do think there is some middle room, however, toward continuing to allow what has been called here as "squad independence":


Just brainstorming here, but if you keep RPs, but make the hurdle to get them a little higher:

I like Skud's comments on making RPs require 4 or 5 people in a squad.

I might also add a requirement that ~2 squadmates need to be near the RP for others to spawn in there. (Rally at the rally point.) That, and/or a requirement that RPs either require that an active FB exist, or even exist within a certain distance of the RP.

These might put RPs in the hands of say, an INF squad that is working together, giving them a longer leash, but with the caveat that the sustained existence of those RPs requires that squad's interest in the FBs.

[I'd also suggest here that Dispo's description of the state of the TG server this month makes a great case for trying out Korengal under this test - when better to use such a challenging map? ]

There is some wisdom in this I think. If the decision was made not to simply remove Rally Points but instead tweak them to arrive at a middle ground, one could certainly start with suggestions like these.

The first thing I would do is revert back to the 0.7 system where you needed to have 3 people in a squad (and around the SL) to set a rally point instead of just 2. I know diligent suggests 4 or 5; both could be tested for balance purposes.

Other possibilities could be introducing time limits for rally points. For example: Squads will only be able to set one rally point every 5 minutes. You could go further with this and make it so that rally points have a half life of only 3 minutes. So that even if they are not over run by the enemy, a squad will have to spend at least 40% of their time without a rally point. This last part may be making things a little too complicated.

In short, I think that a few simple compromises for the rally point system would be as follows...

1. A squad leader should require 2 or more additional squad members in his squad to set a rally point.
2. 2 or more squad members must be within proximity of the squad leader in order to set the rally point.
3. Squad leaders should have a reasonable time limit on how quickly they can set rally points. (i.e. 2-5 min)
4. If the rally is overrun, the timer on rally placement resets.

[Skud]

What does the removal of Rally Points add to gameplay?

None of the teamwork, tactics, or combined arms displayed on the server this week is any different than last month. The only difference I see is a mass of INF constantly surrounding a single FOB or flag, for a few hours. While "epic" to some, it leaves a bit to be desired to those that worked 70 hours last week and didn't have time to even play a full round.

Not to say that I'm not enjoying PR, just throwing it out there.

[Ferris Bueller]

While "epic" to some, it leaves a bit to be desired to those that worked 70 hours last week and didn't have time to even play a full round.

Quoted for undeniable truth.

[briznead]

Myself, I dont know about the new system...Its ok...But in the long run, I think it's gonna be a bad idea...

For all of us that have been around awhile and are "seasoned vets" so to speak, this is a great change....But what about the new guys that are starting to d/l PR to give it a try...? To be honest with you, I think after a few times playin they're gonna be like, "**** this game!" and uninstall PR....

I didnt mind the rally system....It wasnt hard to figure out that if you killed a grip of dudes and then there are more again....."There must be a rally nearby..."

So for the record, the new beta they have out is fun, but Im starting not to be a big fan of it.....

[LeadMagnet]

What if this new change was added as a separate layer? Then the choice is up to the maplist. I agree that it works better on some maps rather than others and I think this would be a great compromise.

[Axis_Sniper]

The no rally system I've come to realize works well on some maps, and falls flat on its face with others.

I think they should just compromise with rallies, instead of entirely removing them. Because if not, then half of the current maplist will have to be removed for their unplayability with this system.

[mat552]

The no rally system I've come to realize works well on some maps, and falls flat on its face with others.

I think they should just compromise with rallies, instead of entirely removing them. Because if not, then half of the current maplist will have to be removed for their unplayability with this system.

Seconded. (lolkorengal)

It gives me perverse pleasure to see that the choice on the part of the devs to butcher down the airforces of the factions is now biting them in the ass, gameplay wise. Some maps require levels of mobility that ground assets simply cannot provide. Or require an unreasonable amount of skill from them.

[Skud]

What if this new change was added as a separate layer? Then the choice is up to the maplist. I agree that it works better on some maps rather than others and I think this would be a great compromise.

Yes.

Seconded. (lolkorengal)

It gives me perverse pleasure to see that the choice on the part of the devs to butcher down the airforces of the factions is now biting them in the ass, gameplay wise. Some maps require levels of mobility that ground assets simply cannot provide. Or require an unreasonable amount of skill from them.

Yeah, like how we have a complete excess of choppers on Muttrah, huh. And Kashan...

[Pratt]

The whole idea behind Project Reality is, I believe, "realism".And I find the new mod a lot closer to realism than any other game out there.I mean where can you simply spawn out in the middle of nowhere on top of a pile of sacks??Sure they are useful but maybe we only miss the RPs because we are used to having them.Being only able to spawn on an FOB is a little more like it,..kinda like getting transferred to the front so to speak.And most military tactics would only really work without the enemy spawning 300-500 meters away after you just wiped them out.Because that would mean that with their intel on your position they would have an immediate advantage on your previously victorious-now-defending squad.I prefer no RPs..IMHO

[Skud]

The whole idea behind Project Reality is, I believe, "realism".And I find the new mod a lot closer to realism than any other game out there.I mean where can you simply spawn out in the middle of nowhere on top of a pile of sacks??Sure they are useful but maybe we only miss the RPs because we are used to having them.Being only able to spawn on an FOB is a little more like it,..kinda like getting transferred to the front so to speak.And most military tactics would only really work without the enemy spawning 300-500 meters away after you just wiped them out.Because that would mean that with their intel on your position they would have an immediate advantage on your previously victorious-now-defending squad.I prefer no RPs..IMHO

Rally Points were a trade off in the interest of good gameplay. It simulates a larger force than just 32 players on the battlefield, on very large maps, with no flag spawns.

Any guy you kill has "intel" on you. They probably know the size of your force, what weapons your force were using when they killed you, and where you're probably headed.

[Pratt]

Rally Points were a trade off in the interest of good gameplay. It simulates a larger force than just 32 players on the battlefield, on very large maps, with no flag spawns.

Any guy you kill has "intel" on you. They probably know the size of your force, what weapons your force were using when they killed you, and where you're probably headed.

FOBs should suffice tho don't you think?
The Intel I'm talkin about is the immediate information that the opposing force could use against you after being destroyed by you.Being how the enemy could get right back to your position in a matter of minutes.
Of course after any skirmish there is Intel gathered on you.But, with the necessary TIME any decent squad leader could counter it and act accordingly.
see what I mean?