No rally point feedback thread - PR .874b

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

What if this new change was added as a separate layer? Then the choice is up to the maplist. I agree that it works better on some maps rather than others and I think this would be a great compromise.

Just based on experience, this will be a problem. The issues we have now is that players are already confused as to what layer is being played even though it is entirely apparent when loading the map. The other issue I can see with this is just the confusion that will come with the ability to set rallies on one map and then not being able to do it on the next two maps in the rotation. I'm thinking this needs to be an "all or nothing" change, or whatever the compromise is if rallies are kept.

The no rally system I've come to realize works well on some maps, and falls flat on its face with others.

Agreed. The biggest problem with this test is the fact that most maps are not really suited for this type of change, whether that is because of the map layout itself or the load-out of assets on a map. I think that is why this testing is important so that those problems can be identified and addressed as needed.

I've altered the rotation for this week to try to change things up and for us to play some maps that weren't in last week. I find that the smaller maps are really enjoyable now with the change and the bigger ones, well, they require some adaptation to still.

Here is this week's rotation:

Sunset City 64
EJOD Desert 64
Assault on Mestia 64
Muttrah City 64
7 Gates 64
Al Basrah 64
Qwai 64
Fools Road 64
Bi Ming 64
Kashan 32
Tad Sae 64
Jabal 64
Ramiel 64
Al Kufrah 64
Qin Ling 64
Asad Kahl 64
Barracuda 64
OGT 64

"But dispo, we always play the same maps!!"

No sh*t. Really? There's only so many maps to choose from. If people are tired of playing the same maps over and over then open the damn editor and start making some maps! I really don't want to hear complaints about the map list, mmmmkay? Thanks.

[TMan]

The whole idea behind Project Reality is, I believe, "realism".And I find the new mod a lot closer to realism than any other game out there.I mean where can you simply spawn out in the middle of nowhere on top of a pile of sacks??

Similar concepts in PR:

Is your kit glued to you in real life - no. Why can't people within a squad trade kits without someone dying?

If you pick up a weapon from a dead enemy in real life, do you have to wear his helmet?

Do repair stations work in real life without any people - magic repair dust?

Can any idiot on the battlefield fly an Apache without training?

Can you shoot through a concrete wall and kill someone?

Can you see people poking through a building when they lay down near the wall?

Is that dammed SAW really that great?

I think the need for RPs is to allow for a particular flow of the game. I don't think the argument to keep them is about realism, it is about flow of the game and the case for independence of the SL to act, particularly in an infantry role.

Agreed. The biggest problem with this test is the fact that most maps are not really suited for this type of change, whether that is because of the map layout itself or the load-out of assets on a map. I think that is why this testing is important so that those problems can be identified and addressed as needed.

Excellent point. I think the smaller, wooded maps are pretty good for the change. The big desert ones are quite a challenge. EJOD I think is the worst.

[Skud]

Just based on experience, this will be a problem. The issues we have now is that players are already confused as to what layer is being played even though it is entirely apparent when loading the map. The other issue I can see with this is just the confusion that will come with the ability to set rallies on one map and then not being able to do it on the next two maps in the rotation. I'm thinking this needs to be an "all or nothing" change, or whatever the compromise is if rallies are kept.

You know the final loading screen, with an over view of the map? The DEVs could imrpove it. Include the layer, and if rallies are enabled.

It would just be a different kind of game mode. If people get confused, they would probably ask it in all-chat and get "no rally mode." If the player didn't read the manual and didnt bother to educate himself, then, well, that's his fault.

[fuzzhead]

Is your kit glued to you in real life - no. Why can't people within a squad trade kits without someone dying?

May be fixed in next version

If you pick up a weapon from a dead enemy in real life, do you have to wear his helmet?

Its on the to-do list. Not in the cards for v0.9, but I bet by 1.0 it will be fixed. Its a complicated issue, and involves a massive pile of work to avoid bugs while retaining the look of the current soldiers.

[Taip3n]

On Qwai the other day, we ambushed an FOB away from the contested flag but on the flag that was the next one to come. There was heavy blob fighting at the contested flag of South Bridge. The problem lay in this next though:

With no spawn for the enemy in either zone, the capturing of both flags would thus be swifter. My point is that without a further rally to spawn from, the defenders (about 1 squad) had no real way to reply. All we had to do was drive in, hit the FOB and done. Start shooting.

Our team controlled the area.

Therefore, these guys may have been sitting defending for the whole team for a good long time only to end up spawning in main or elsewhere with no real ability to reply – and the US team capturing all flags up to the Chinese main just like that (i.e. one flag to be obligatory capped, then south bridge, then capping the enemies’ obligatory flag and then onto main). Indeed, now the emphasis was on defending main, or South Bridge, incase it was over-ran (which it was). This penultimate flag was useless, and given up as a buffer to be contested, the control of the area was too strong in US hands by then.

My view is that maybe then removing of rallies, removes a defenders’ ability to reply, just as it removes the enemies’ ability to continued assault. Furthermore, with blob tactics elsewhere to defend/attack little amount of people are left to actually defend key positions such as flags, river crossings and so on. This people could be doing for a long time – and all of a sudden all their efforts are to waste as they can’t spawn anywhere close to their FOB (because it is down by knife or incendiary). All it needs is one person to hit the FOB and the game is done. The target therefore, is not people, it is the FOB itself. People come after. Hit the FOB first and you’re laughing.

One part of the rally system I liked was the ability to spawn in and defend. As an attacker, you know very well the FOB is for the team to spawn but individual squads set defensive rallies themselves to riposte. Now all you need is to hit a radio. Therein lies the problem, once a FOB is down it is too easy to mop up. And by my experience on Qwai that night, this can lead to a very swift fold of the flags, with the enemy not being able to reply but just try to jump to the next defendable flag. This would lead me to believe the in-game dynamic is therefore weakened, and begins a more A to B number crunching, is diluted, and lesser then with substance, depth and richness of variation.

[snooggums]

Just based on experience, this will be a problem. The issues we have now is that players are already confused as to what layer is being played even though it is entirely apparent when loading the map.

I only know of the little vehicle/arty icons in the bottom left of the map. While someone who knows the layers could tell what it was I'm usually doing something other than staring at the screen when maps are loading, such as a quick pee break

I also don't want a mix or rally and no rally layers because servers will simply play what is popular: rallies. How many servers play C&C? C&C would be improved greatly with this current no-rally test and the UAVs. Maybe we could do a C&C map list on a weekend afternoon this month with no password just to see how it goes?

[Sabre_Tooth_Tigger]

Have another fob 400m away, off the flag and patrol the squads between the two

other than staring at the screen when maps are loading, such as a quick pee break

turn off auto join

Can you shoot through a concrete wall and kill someone?

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0[/media]

[Wicks]

Lots of great ideas flying about and Dispo thank you for you work on the maplists etc.

I too have been thinking about either a seperate gameplay variant, i.e. rallies vs no rallies or tying no rallies into C&C which to me is the most obvious. This would give greater impetus to the building of FOB's during C&C, even on the most disorganised night/server and might actually lead to a greater take up of C&C on other servers, it seems like a largely forgotten game mode now which must be galling for those who devoted so much time to its development.

That being said I am not totally discounting the viability of the change to no rallies as a permanent one yet, I am merely put off by some of the results thus far which may have been influenced by:-

1 - Me being a stubborn old coot who dislikes change to my favourite game
2 - Me being a stubborn old coot who is yet to see the major advantage over the RP system over the FOB system
3 - Quality of gameplay being variable, which in turn is influenced by the suitability of a particular map, players unfamiliarity with the new mechanic
4 - The need to change and adapt bevaiour, tactics to account for the new mechanic
5 - The propensity for FOB system to lead to blob play and my disagreement that this is 'always' the best tactic or in fact the most interesting or fun to play
6 - My hatred of the 2 man requestable kit system

Still it's PR so I am going to keep playing lol!

[Alpha_s9]

A lot of things are limited by engines, but these are the first responses that came to mind.

Similar concepts in PR:

Is your kit glued to you in real life - no. Why can't people within a squad trade kits without someone dying?

Training... sure anybody can pull a trigger but how many people in your squad have cross-training as a medic? I just wish the kits would disappear after you die, so that if your medic gets shot your SAW gunner can't just decide to become a field medic until he gets "wounded" by a sniper head shot... allowing him to switch back to his SAW (probably with full ammo).

If you pick up a weapon from a dead enemy in real life, do you have to wear his helmet?

Only if you're trying to fit in behind enemy lines.

Do repair stations work in real life without any people - magic repair dust?

Nope, but sometimes you need tools to fix things... cutting torches aren't exactly standard issue.

Can any idiot on the battlefield fly an Apache without training?

If they have a pilot kit they have training. Right? Right???

Can you shoot through a concrete wall and kill someone?

With a big enough bullet anything is possible.

Can you see people poking through a building when they lay down near the wall?

Is it in the ghetto?

Is that dammed SAW really that great?

Yes.

[Celestial1]

Spawning in waves off an RP as one squad is different to potentially a whole team spawning off a firebase and repeatedly rushing the flag how? How is that better or more tactical.

Because with them all spawning off of a firebase, it's just a mass to shoot that take 5 minutes to come back, rather than a smaller mass that comes back in 30 seconds. It's like being hit with a decent sized rock in the back, compared to being stung 6 times.

Defense is viable now because it takes some time before you will be attacked again, meaning that if you can overwhelm their assault you're likely in for a good bit of silence until the next wave, unless there is a huge assault on your position which will likely mean you will lose your position; tactically, a larger force with coordination can still take you out, whereas a large force with little coordination will have a hard time taking you out if you have established a good defense.

Also the suggestion that anyone who doesn't like the change simply needs to get tactical and or give it longer is a rude. Let's not belittle peoples points of view soley on the basis that you believe you know better or whats best for them.

I never said that there is a lack of teamwork. However, there can always be more; if you were so inclined to step up as commander, your team should to considerably better, right? Assuming, of course, that you are actually being helpful.

If you stick to your squad, and be completely independent from the team, you will often have times when you are simply miserable. Stepping up to create a team strategy (even if you're just a SL, and there's no commander) will considerably increase your teams chances of winning and your squad's chance of success.






Just like stepping up to that level would have helped in a round with rallies, it does the same here; however, it is significantly increased since your squad's failure will result in a gap for the enemy to reinforce their defense before you can attack again. Multi-squad tactics now have a larger impact.

[mat552]

Yeah, like how we have a complete excess of choppers on Muttrah, huh. And Kashan...

There are 7 maps with helicopters in PR. Total. I think as recently as .7, there were 13.

It's really kind of sad that the maps with choppersJets too have such a bad rap now, considering they really didn't do anything wrong other than follow the concept bigger is better.

[Delta*RandyShugart*]

The other night on Jabal I was in a btr squad that should have stayed with the infantry squads rather than acting as a independent mechanized force. In the end i truly feel the map was lost due to the amount of btrs lost in the field. As a squadmember I made suggestions but I did not want to act as a backseat SL bc let's face it no one likes to be told what they should be doing constantly, I despise players who second guess my every move as a SL, so I rolled with it.

That being said. Had their been rally points, it wouldn't have mattered, it was actually better that there were not any rally points especially by west beach, the death number would have been much higher.

Squads can still act independently as small units, look at any given "building" squads as of late. 6 man squads can also still implement small unit tactics, however you do want from tiime to time get a sitrep from the other SLs to make sure you are on the same page.

The no rally point addition just ups the ante, and makes the gameplay curve a bit more steep. Yes it's going to be a bit harder, is that such a bad thing as a whole?

I think we all have gotten so used to having the safety of a rally point, especially if the firebase is overrun, or if a squad is wiped out so a medic can spawn and attempt to revive everyone.

This tweak doesn't forbid the use of small unit tactics, in some cases it will actually be an advantage in certain scenarios, and also in defensive roles.

I have yet to play Kashan, but I am curious if any players who have, have seen or been apart of two seperate landings at the bunkers with success of setting up firebases and once north village or south village is capped have been able to cap the bunker flags etc.?

[mat552]

I have yet to play Kashan, but I am curious if any players who have, have seen or been apart of two seperate landings at the bunkers with success of setting up firebases and once north village or south village is capped have been able to cap the bunker flags etc.?

My only experience has been from 1000ft+, but from where my strikes were called in, the enemy was able to buckle in and hunker down pretty good, we stayed at bunkers for all of both rounds I played. From where the team was stationed though, my guess is that as soon as we would have forced them out of bunkers, we could have actually advanced instead of hunting the whole complex for one spawnpoint, because the resistance was very concentrated.

[machineofdeath]

Ok I understand that this is project reality & it strives to be realistic, but come on its a game, sommething people can play for a few hours a day to blow off some stress. You can't make a game "realistic" cuz it will be boring, you want some fun & fast action. Who really wants to spend 20 minutes walking across a map to get to a fight only to be killed & have to walk for another 20 minutes. Yes on some maps (maybe 2) or the 16 player maps this no rp would be cool to play, but for the rest of the maps this is a big bad idea, unless you have 20 transport vehicles that can take a lot more damage & some heavy duty firebases. If the devs keep this change then they might as well get rid of the insurgency maps & all the large maps & start making small maps like call of duty does so we can all run around in circles with random spawn points.

[cylon-13]

i dont mind this change at all...all the ones that dont like it can come and play poe2 sometimes...and that might free up the PR server so some of us can try it out more often. seems more realistic with this change. as long as there are plenty of rides to get where you need to go its good enough. if they decide to bring it back maybe have it so players spawn in over the rally point in the sky and use a parachute...thats still realistic.