No rally point feedback thread - PR .874b

[daveyjonesjr]

After experiencing this gameplay changes ive come to the conclusion that many pr maps doesnt fit with that no rally change, Rally should be put back but with more restriction, thats the way i see it.

[TMan]

So, do we like the change or see potential in it or not?

With maps to support it, yes it has potential. People will just have to learn to play this way.

Would be great to have some other things changed as well to better support this concept, but it is not, in itself, totally bad - just different.

[sapientiea]

Well I would opt for the large maps with rally points, as indicated by Dispo. And yes I like it.

** I would also presume that there will be new maps commming out?
** Maybe some of the older maps will allow for very good games without the rally?
** Maybe it's possible for them to make a rally that can only be dropped every 15 minutes and not closer to a flag than x meters?

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

We discussed this in-game yesterday, so I thought I would bring it up here since everyone liked the idea:

1) No rallies
2) FOBs can still be overrun to disable spawn
3) FOBs cannot be destroyed by knife nor incendiary grenades. Only Combat Engineers with C4 (IED) can destroy them. Perhaps CEs are the only ones to carry incendiaries?

This would place more importance on that kit and give it something of importance to do other than put C4 on roads. It would also keep the FOBs as something to fight over, as teams could battle to control it. A CO could obviously still destroy his own FOBs. Might not be perfect, but the lone wolf soldier destroying the entire team spawn is really wearing thin on a lot of people so FOBs need to be made a little more "sturdy" and the difficulty level for them to be taken out should be equal to their importance to a team.

[Dreadnought]

Infantery DOES jump up behind you if you did not properly clear out an area, obviously you overlooked the space where the rally was.

I mean when you're in open terrain and you have good visibility confirming that there is no infantry near you... minus the "amazing orifice of infinite troops" hidden in a tiny bush.

So yes, in my hypothetical situation, I did overlook the rally. But I disagree that "clear out an area" is synonymous with "send 2 troops within 100m of every visible bush."


Also,(another point) why do people want rallies on large maps and not more possible FB's(8-10)?

[mat552]

We discussed this in-game yesterday, so I thought I would bring it up here since everyone liked the idea:

1) No rallies
2) FOBs can still be overrun to disable spawn
3) FOBs cannot be destroyed by knife nor incendiary grenades. Only Combat Engineers with C4 (IED) can destroy them. Perhaps CEs are the only ones to carry incendiaries?

The amount of combat engineers needs to be upped for this to work. There arn't enough to go around. 5 firebases means 3-4 combat engineers in my book.

What if incendiaries could not destroy the base, but they could bring it down out of the base, and only the rifleman specialist kit has one? If the time the base remains on the ground without disappearing is upped as well, then having a block of C4 would be the only true way to destroy the firebase, but with one rifleman specialist you can make sure that it's out of the action temporarily. (And then you have to choose whether to push forward to the next objective or hold the site for the CE to arrive and finish your work)

[snooggums]

3) FOBs cannot be destroyed by knife nor incendiary grenades. Only Combat Engineers with C4 (IED) can destroy them. Perhaps CEs are the only ones to carry incendiaries?

With only two engineer kits and the other team able to take them I don't like that idea. I would prefer to just restrict the incendiares to SL (all teams), Rifleman Specialists (or equivalent) and Engineers.

[johnflenaly]

We discussed this in-game yesterday, so I thought I would bring it up here since everyone liked the idea:

1) No rallies
2) FOBs can still be overrun to disable spawn
3) FOBs cannot be destroyed by knife nor incendiary grenades. Only Combat Engineers with C4 (IED) can destroy them. Perhaps CEs are the only ones to carry incendiaries?

This would place more importance on that kit and give it something of importance to do other than put C4 on roads. It would also keep the FOBs as something to fight over, as teams could battle to control it. A CO could obviously still destroy his own FOBs. Might not be perfect, but the lone wolf soldier destroying the entire team spawn is really wearing thin on a lot of people so FOBs need to be made a little more "sturdy" and the difficulty level for them to be taken out should be equal to their importance to a team.

I was thinking about this and I'm not sure most people have realised this(or I'm just slow on the uptake). With the exception of vehicle heavy maps, the logi truck is the almighty king! Lets look a Fools road. Now on either team most people seem to concentrate on armour, but for the most part this map is very infantry based. Meaning your going to need firebases meaning your going to need logi trucks. Still for the most part I see them running around freely with little to no protection. If you can effectivly destroy and logi truck that moves, you stopped there team. In this way it brings a cool effect that actually hitting ones supply line effects the battle, were befor wtih rp this could be worked around. Still vehicle heavy maps it makes little diffrenve. In any infantry based map logi trucks so be the primary target of the team to stop the opfor from moving.


If were to go your rought I would like to see the combat engi numbers go up. With 5 firebases two ingineers seems a little low. I would rather get rid of the ability to knife the firebase, and leave the only one with incindary to be the SL. That was the kit actually gets used!!

[Rudd_medicman]

Just wanna say I love the changes, but it does punish bad teams more. (which is good imo)

Which is why I want to thank such great SLs as Dispo, Cougar, and John (Whom I think I have only played with twice or so) for such fantastic rounds.

Though I disagree with FBs being much harder to physically destroy since once the FB's position has been overun by attackers they shouldn't effectively be held at that position by their inability to neutralise a spawn point, that would encourage sitting back at range and trying to rape the FB rather than attacking it imo.

Best thing would be to only have incendiaries on CE, Officer, Specialist and most requestable kits. This means its a little bit harder to kill a FB, but not a huge impediment.

There are a few maps where FBs has changed the situation for the worse at least for one team, but this can be overcome imo.

INS maps apart from Basrah, need more robust transports. Korengal is getting a huge make over afaik, so I'm not gonna comment there.
Barracuda, Chi team have a lot of problems maintaining FBs due to enemy CAS. Remedy is to replace 1/2 FAVs with 1/2 50cal APCs imo. (on my brit vs chi version of PRSP barracuda I've done this, and its fun )

There are a couple more, but same story really, Tweaking assets would probably fix it.

[STealthBanana]

Best thing would be to only have incendiaries on CE, Officer, Specialist and most requestable kits. This means its a little bit harder to kill a FB, but not a huge impediment.

that was the first thing that came to my mind after I heard that RPs might be removed
from the game. make it harder to destroy a FB.
Ok it does not take that long to build it up if you have at least 2 guys shoveling,
but knifing the radio twice to kill it? that's a little to easy imo. I'll think about some solutions.
does anyone have one already?

[Alpha_s9]

With only two engineer kits and the other team able to take them I don't like that idea. I would prefer to just restrict the incendiares to SL (all teams), Rifleman Specialists (or equivalent) and Engineers.

This would also help (but not eliminate) the annoying "omg someone just threw thermite within 20 meters of our BTR, we're DOOOOOMED!". Not really related to rallies/fobs, but something that annoys the crap out of me nonetheless.

[dbzao]

Problem in not allowing a soldier to demolish the FO by himself is that he will then spawn camp it instead, and that's very frustrating and gamey.

But I do agree it's annoying when a single guy rushes a position and destroys the FO by himself. The issue here is that you probably can't defend all FOs, so there's really not many solutions for that issue imo. Only good thing is that it will only happen if it's one guy, and without RPs that guy won't do very well.

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

Problem in not allowing a soldier to demolish the FO by himself is that he will then spawn camp it instead, and that's very frustrating and gamey.

But I do agree it's annoying when a single guy rushes a position and destroys the FO by himself. The issue here is that you probably can't defend all FOs, so there's really not many solutions for that issue imo. Only good thing is that it will only happen if it's one guy, and without RPs that guy won't do very well.

The issue I have is the time and difficulty expended to get a FO into position to help your team is not proportional to the skill and effort expended to destroy that FO.

Example: Last night on Fools Road, our team (Russia) had a pretty unfavorable flag layout and were pushed back to hill 91 (I think that's the number - it doesn't really matter - it was the CP west of our main on the south side of the river). We had no forward deployed FOs to assault the next flag and we had troops out in the field trying to get into an assault position. I spawned at main, grabbed our only logistics truck and ventured out. I spent a good 15 minutes carefully navigating the hills, trees and other obstacles north of Dylym Village to sneak the truck past the deathtrap the Chechen team had on the road to Warehouse. I managed to do this, drop one crate, build a FO, change kits to shovel and got the FO spawnable. I think resumed my travels closer to the next objective, which was a good 300m west of Warehouse, to support our assault on that position. I managed to do this, again dropping the FO and getting the rest of the squads I was working with to link with me and get it built. As I said before, this took 15 minutes, maybe longer, a lot of scary driving where I almost flipped the truck, avoiding enemy contact, etc. All of that time and energy was lost by one guy, his knife and his incendiary.

The effort to establish a spawn for my team to help them is completely un-proportional to the effort it takes to destroy one. I'm not saying anything about disabling the spawn capabilities - I agree with the position on that. It's just that there needs to be some effort to take one down I think: a couple of tank rounds, a hellfire or two, mortars, a JDAM (either CO or from CAS), C4 - something other than a knife that every single kit (except pilots) carries. If we can come up with something that makes the difficulty in destroying a FO equivalent to the effort it takes to establish one then I think the system works fine.

[Diligent_BF2]

Re: FOBs - how about instead of knifing twice to make it go down, you have to stand there at the radio and hold the knife (or some other tool, say one that only certain kits carry?) button down for something like 5 secs (or more)?

[Alpha_s9]

I don't know if this is even possible, but what if a commander could place a FOB within a certain distance of a captured flag? I'm talking via the CP, with no crates needed.

This would add a little bit more to the flag capture and benefit the team with a commander, maybe making it more common to have one. I doubt you could have a "build timer", or something where it takes a while to construct... but that would be even better. The thought of an instant spawn becoming available after a successful assault scares me a little, but it could represent reserve forces on standby to move in and secure once the objective has been captured.

On highly contested flags, that would mean both teams probably have a FOB somewhere close to the action (until it's destroyed) and with the limit on build distances combined with a radius to flag limitation you'd probably be able to get it so that only one or two FOBs could be brought into play around that flag by the commander option. I mention this because if control of the flag flips multiple times in a short period you might end up with a lot of FOBs. Problems here would be the ability to move your team across the flags very quickly if done correctly, and not much for the defenders to do about it.

Ultimately something like this would give the command chair a bit more control over where the team's resources are allocated for assaults by allowing him control over the location your assault will be spawning from. I'm not sure what to do about defense, unless it's just allow the commander to drop a FOB every X seconds... and we all know how that would turn out.

It also takes away from the logistics of the game, putting less emphasis on ambushes. I'm big on changes that allow the commander more control over the team without directly hindering the team that doesn't have a commander. A change like this would pretty much mean both teams need a commander, or someone needs to do a helluva job on build detail.

With all that said, I'm thinking that maybe we should consider some form of airborne supply drop available to the CO, giving him the ability to drop supplies in the areas where he wants a FOB. Then all he has to do is direct an officer or CE over to that location and have them build. After sitting in the CO seat a few times post change, I've noticed the following scenario:

Squad 1 will build a critical FOB well behind the line, but used by most of the team as their respawn point in the beginning of the match.

Squad 2 pushes forward and drops supplies at a good build location, but then notices they are too close to the "rear" FOB. They immediately request that commander destroy that FOB so they can build a new one.

The problem here is that squad 2 represents one flank, and probably does need a FOB. However, destroying the rear FOB affects all flanks. In those situations, I want to move the rear FOB further back to allow good forward building positions. I can't do this however until someone takes crates to that location, and is standing by to rebuild the rear fob.

Well, you CAN do it... but it's a bad idea. Forward bases go down a lot, and relying on all your fowards as your only way to get back into the fight almost always ends badly.

The ability for a CO to drop a supply crate at any location would help in the above situations.