No rally point feedback thread - PR .874b

[Diligent_BF2]

Careful - if you place too many restrictions on placement of FOBs, like distance from capped flags, etc., you may really limit the placement (depending on map, etc.) of FOBs to the point they are easily located by the enemy.

How about this: Keep RPs, but limit the number of RPs an officer kit can deploy, say, to one per kit, and make it something he has to "reload" by going back to an FOB, or main?

[Bullseye2550]

make a 5 min delayed spawn on that fb.
it helps me also to not get angry if someone spawn while i shovel, getting a sniper and run away.

[davemccr]

How about keeping rally points, but limiting their use, to squads of 5 - 6, only set able if there are 2 squad members, plus the squad leader. Just like a few versions ago. But with them only being deployable once every 5 minutes. Basically, that would allow for strategically that would allow for forward operating squads, to work a little more independently from the "blob". If they are still over runable, this would penalize poorly placed rally's, increase strategically placed rally's value, and reward squads that worked well together as a squad.

[starstriker1]

Just played with this setting for the first time today. Came in for the tail end of a falujah insurgency round on the US side, and an hour or so into the best Qwai round I've had in recent memory as the PLA.

I'm noticing that insurgency feels much different. Insurgents seem to be given free reign of the map while the counter insurgency team is preparing to move or regrouping. IED attacks and proper ambushes are much more common, and the US players tend to operate very cautiously compared to before. Feels like it might be slanted towards the insurgents now, though.

Qwai, on the other hand, was something else. Territory control MEANS something now, and won't be subverted the moment someone puts a rally up, giving them free reign of your territory. FOBs and backup FOBs are paramount, and the crazy, almost ridiculous flanking that characterized the map before are gone. We only had one serious instance of flanking the entire game, when the US team snuck a logistics truck past us to set up a base in the building on the NW corner of the map, which put a rather substantial pressure on our defensive position. My squad ultimately flanked around it cautiously and managed to eliminate the FOB, defenders, and crates, and it was much more fun and MUCH more rewarding than doing the same thing for a rally point, thanks to the added defenses and demolitions work required!

In general, I found people were actually being careful with their virtual lives and coordinating closely with their team. Dunno if it was just the crowd I was in with, but we had a decent CO and enough people on mumble (including our APC squads) to really coordinate. The battlefield felt less crowded, and more of the combat was being done at long range. The more restrictive spawn rules have really improved the quality of play, in my opinion!

I also found that the reduced spawn times are nice as well. You still end up being out of the fight longer because of travel time and coordination with others, but you're no longer out of the fight and IDLE. Just being able to move around during what was previously "sit around and twiddle your thumbs" time is a big improvement!

[Berlancic]

Yeah, this is probably why 1 and 2k maps need to be obliterated, as, I think, Disco-Jedi mentioned earlier. The Blufor must operate together, I mean whole team or most of team. But really on these small maps it does leave not much space to operate and place FOBs and such. Sorry If I've misjudged your intention star-striker, I only read the first 2 paragraphs of your post.

Thanks to Disco-Jedi I think, to pointing this out.

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

One thing that I've definitely noticed about this change: It magnifies the stress level of the squad leaders by orders of magnitude. Rage quits, yelling at players, zero tolerance for dumb mistakes and incompetence, a much smaller desire to try to teach people the right way to do things or to use kits, friends turning on friends, etc. All of these I blame on the lack of rally points and the stress involved in trying to keep your squad together and alive. A lot more arguing and stupid things like that have been seen over the past week or two, and I blame it on the change. Each death is magnified in importance tenfold.

Personally, I'm mentally drained from having to SL round after round, and when I don't want to I watch the squad list sit empty as everyone waits for the same guys that always SL to start up a squad. Once they're up, they fill instantly. It's quite tiresome.

So, if there is anything that I don't like about this change, it is the tendency to reduce the number of squad leaders as players who would only do it casually now want nothing to do with the position at all. Sad, really, because the net result is going to be forcing those that always squad lead into insane asylums.

[orpal]

Pressure is on squad leaders there is no doubt about it. Now that we don't have Rally Points every mistake squad leader makes pays off costly. They start yelling at them making them to quit, rage quit matter of fact.

I think I'll start locking more since I could afford less experienced players taking spot in my squad before the change, not I can simply not do that. Either be a good player or get kicked, which is really sad but at the end it's SL's fault for not having the right crew.

And yea Dispo, take a break, get some inspiration and come back. If that doesn't help, I, personally, would love to see you using assets and other people stepping up.

I got yelled out quite often since the change, and I understand it's part of the process being a good squad leader (critisizm) but I would recommend that you don't do it again, or start squad leading and do better.

[Startrekern]

You know, something I've found interesting is that every time I make a squad recently, more than half the people in it are new faces I've never seen before. They play spectacularly most of the time and I've had some amazing rounds with them.

While squad leading can be stressful, yes, it's more rewarding.

[Wicks]

One thing that I've definitely noticed about this change: It magnifies the stress level of the squad leaders by orders of magnitude. Rage quits, yelling at players, zero tolerance for dumb mistakes and incompetence, a much smaller desire to try to teach people the right way to do things or to use kits, friends turning on friends, etc. All of these I blame on the lack of rally points and the stress involved in trying to keep your squad together and alive. A lot more arguing and stupid things like that have been seen over the past week or two, and I blame it on the change. Each death is magnified in importance tenfold.

Personally, I'm mentally drained from having to SL round after round, and when I don't want to I watch the squad list sit empty as everyone waits for the same guys that always SL to start up a squad. Once they're up, they fill instantly. It's quite tiresome.

So, if there is anything that I don't like about this change, it is the tendency to reduce the number of squad leaders as players who would only do it casually now want nothing to do with the position at all. Sad, really, because the net result is going to be forcing those that always squad lead into insane asylums.

Amen to that brother!

[Taip3n]

I think if an SL yells and gets angry then he/she is the one with the problem.

Even with troublesome players, anger and yelling solves nothing. In my experience as an SM it can generally isolate the SL from the whole squad. The SM's may follow. They may continue to play. They even cheer when you leave.

It is far better to be open and approachable.

I would not lock squads on condition that they have to be ‘good players’. Not only does this sound like an elitist jerk (my words - and certainly not directed at Orpal for sure but I mean 'in general'), as Star points out you miss out on meeting lots of nice new people. As said before: these people are the life blood of TG.

Ok. You will meet a lot of people along the way in those numbers that are jerks themselves. Maybe as an SM you will even get a little jaded and jumpy, and unable to relax playing what is essentially a group game, when your SL rams instructions down your ear, time and time again, whilst you complete the human imperfection that day.

As for increased pressure as an SL. For sure. I still wont shy from being an SL though unless I am too tired – and yes, SLing exhausts you now. I remember I recently kept blasting out contacts to poor old Ferris (as he was Commander) whilst the team re-adjusted continuedly in a loosing fight. I tried my best but I for sure felt bad about keeping contacting him and not waiting for him to reply after I call out my squad number. A mistake then. And for sure I was tired and when I do that I am more liable to beat myself up (he is, afterall a member of the 6th who I look up to and think they don't think of me much; which is my bag but that goes to show I am human).

The point is, I never lock my squad, and always try to act civilly, even if I kick someone, explaining the reasons why, and always err on giving them a chance until it seems to me irrefutable but to kick. You have to cut slack to people, and that includes yourself. You wont get on with all and you will meet wonderful people. Some days will suck. Some will be brilliant. Some, well, the everyday thing you do in the numbers.

So. Pressure now, yes. Mistakes. Yes. Bad games. Yes. But everyone has bad days, including people in your squad. They may be wanting some fun. I still allow them to flex their muscles if I think they deserve some action instead of defending a position for hours on end, whilst other squads go bang bangs, if I see the chance to move them out (e.g. the whole team just got raped and spawned on your flag you were defending. Ok, a SM may go that just arrived. So what. But yeah, I still feel bad if I think I do people wrong. But it's a balance you take. He was right btw, everyone left and we had to head back to recue the flag. Later that night, it was very late and I had a lesson to give the next morning, some people joined. The crew with me I had explained over half an hour before, I had to go, even so I felt bad. Even when me and another guy played 'first one to get killed' and cackled our heads off. I just hoped I did well as their SL when I took over, and that they enjoyed themselves when I had. That is my aim under the conditions given).

What matters is that the guys are satisfied. I explain reasons. I ask for suggestions. And yes, own up if a plan did not go so well. Hopefully they wont be the flip side of an arsey SL, an arsey SM. All you can do as a person and a SL is to try to be open, and hope that others in general notice.

Not worried about the pressure. Well that’s my experience as an inf SL for many moons now. Not much has changed then apart from the rally going. I guess it just highlights how people are, or how they are that day.

[Alpha_s9]

Sounds good in theory, but what do we do on maps like Kashan, Quinling, and the many other 4 KM maps scheduled for release in 0.9? Flags on these maps can be several kilometers from one another. I don't see how a team can feasibly attack a defended flag in this case, seeing as how they would not be able to place their own spawn point anywhere within a kilometer of the target flag. Yes, you could theoretically build a string of FOBs from one flag to the next, but it could take 3 or 4 to cover the distance. Right now only 5 can be deployed, which means we would either have to raise that number to something far too high, or demolish all of the rearward FOB's, leaving even fewer areas to spawn, and creating even more of a "blob" type strategy.

Or....

Recon teams would serve a purpose by identifying the location(s) of fobs on the targeted objective.

Strike team(s) would then assault that FOB using APC/Heli/Trans truck transport, taking it down or calling in area attacks/CAS if it's heavily defended, keeping pressure up until the flag is neutral.

Transports would then bring up security (defense) forces from the rear objective to complete the cap.

As for building FOBs in newly acquired areas... if FOB placement was restricted to friendly flag areas this wouldn't be a problem. If the maps are huge, requiring that you build a FOB within a certain distance to another would be a problem, if that's even something they could do.

Bottom line though, I really like the idea of organized AAS as opposed to what we have now... which is a few good men getting in there and creating an instant army at the enemy lines. (and in some cases behind)

[Alpha_s9]

One thing that I've definitely noticed about this change: It magnifies the stress level of the squad leaders by orders of magnitude. Rage quits, yelling at players, zero tolerance for dumb mistakes and incompetence, a much smaller desire to try to teach people the right way to do things or to use kits, friends turning on friends, etc. All of these I blame on the lack of rally points and the stress involved in trying to keep your squad together and alive. A lot more arguing and stupid things like that have been seen over the past week or two, and I blame it on the change. Each death is magnified in importance tenfold.

Personally, I'm mentally drained from having to SL round after round, and when I don't want to I watch the squad list sit empty as everyone waits for the same guys that always SL to start up a squad. Once they're up, they fill instantly. It's quite tiresome.

So, if there is anything that I don't like about this change, it is the tendency to reduce the number of squad leaders as players who would only do it casually now want nothing to do with the position at all. Sad, really, because the net result is going to be forcing those that always squad lead into insane asylums.

I haven't noticed this so much, but probably because I generally only run small squads with people I know from past experiences. I just don't have enough patience most of the time to really try and teach a whole new squad of guys what I expect from them, so I try to keep it down to one or two "new guys" per squad. I also don't usually do traditional infantry squads, so that keeps it interesting.

I have however noticed that sometimes there's just no winning. No matter what you do as an SL, commander, one man army... sometimes the other team is just too organized to beat. This sticks out a lot more with the no rally change. At least it seems that way to me.

Pre-beta, four or five guys could put a rally down somewhere and still be a pain for the other team in SOME way. Even if the rest of the team had accidentally installed PR and thought they were playing vanilla, those 4 or 5 guys had a chance.

Now just getting into a position to do some damage can be such a hassle that without the team working together it's just a lost cause. I'm sure some of this is due to balance issues that crop up from not designing the maps with this change in mind, but I also think there's some real potential for lousy games once people start to understand what it takes to win rounds with no rallies.

I also think there are WAY too many trans choppers available at a time on Barracuda. Now that we don't have rallies to help keep those choppers out of harm's way, they can cost a team with inexperienced pilots a LOT of tickets.

[Startrekern]

I also think there are WAY too many trans choppers available at a time on Barracuda. Now that we don't have rallies to help keep those choppers out of harm's way, they can cost a team with inexperienced pilots a LOT of tickets.

Are you trying to make it impossible for the US to get on the island period? They NEED those hueys for supplies and transport.

And there are only three, right?

[Taip3n]

I have however noticed that sometimes there's just no winning. No matter what you do as an SL, commander, one man army... sometimes the other team is just too organized to beat. This sticks out a lot more with the no rally change. At least it seems that way to me.

Pre-beta, four or five guys could put a rally down somewhere and still be a pain for the other team in SOME way. Even if the rest of the team had accidentally installed PR and thought they were playing vanilla, those 4 or 5 guys had a chance.

Now just getting into a position to do some damage can be such a hassle that without the team working together it's just a lost cause. I'm sure some of this is due to balance issues that crop up from not designing the maps with this change in mind, but I also think there's some real potential for lousy games once people start to understand what it takes to win rounds with no rallies.

People may say 'up the teamwork', or, good, less one man/squad armies, get with the teamplayer ideal! But to me this kind of aspect of the game is what is missing right now. It is the proverbial Chess pawn I keep banging on about, that applies pressure on a part of the board, and changes the game. This is the Queen, changing to be able to move all over the board, supporting and applying pressure, than it used to do which was move one square at a time (imagine that). This, is the 'sinew' I was talking about, which is missing.

I am still undecided about FOB's. The very nature they are great for now caring more and manoeuvring better, and operating at a squad/inter-squad level, has been offset by the aspect of 'sinew' or 'game-play depth' missing. It's like - no; I'll actually say: It is - the answer to one of the two key aspects, the one of immersion and teamplay, is brilliantly resolved only to evaporate instantly the other key aspect, that of game depth. I am still not sure the elixir to remedy this. But if it is a process of small steps in evolution and FOBs go, which I am sure will happen. Then other things definitely need to follow from it, and I believe alot of answers given here have been brilliant suggestions on how to apply this over time (or even, a brainwave from someone will fit in the 'new things' just as someone must have over the pieces in general in Chess, and its evolution from its beginnings). I guess and hope the DEVs are thinking hard on this. Perhaps it will never be resolved fully until a new game engine allows detail like FOB placement in more precise locations, and other such things, like rendering (rightly pointed out earlier).

[CR8Z]

I for one have started SL'ing more with the change because a) there are fewer squads to join and b) I want to be in charge of my own destiny because I can't use a rally to spawn.

I find that I tend to take more chances as a squad member versus a squad leader. I just live longer as an SL.