No rally point feedback thread - PR .874b

[mat552]

It can even withstand plane bombs unless they're like .. perfect down to a 3-5x3-5 meter window.

40 years ago, we could put a bomb in a pickle barrel at 10,000 feet.

Now we have laser guided munitions. Anywhere the infantry wants the firepower, pilots can put it down in there.

I'm starting to agree with people who say that 4km maps should have rally points, and smaller maps shouldn't.

One thing is for sure though, maps are going to have to be designed from the ground up with the lack of rally points in mind now. It's pretty clear (at least from my point of view) that the traditional maps are simply not designed to, and are barely capable of adapting to, a PR without RPs. Just to put this out there. Every single map currently in PR was designed for .5 or after. For RPs.

[Warlab]

One thing is for sure though, maps are going to have to be designed from the ground up with the lack of rally points in mind now. It's pretty clear (at least from my point of view) that the traditional maps are simply not designed to, and are barely capable of adapting to, a PR without RPs. Just to put this out there. Every single map currently in PR was designed for .5 or after. For RPs.

I don't really have much knowledge about 0.9, but I wonder if the Dev's have considered that. I believe we are to get some new maps in 0.9. Could they have been designed with this in mind ? I wonder if we'll loose some old ones ? Or will we get more game modes on some maps such as this no RP mode ?

[mat552]

I do know we are losing some maps, Sunset City and Road to Kyong'Ni off the top of my head, there's a dev post about it floating around somewhere.

As for speculation about .9, your guess is as good as mine, but unless the mappers knew when they started their maps that RPs would be going out the window, they probably didn't design with that in mind.

[DiscoJedi]

Here's my initial thoughts on the RP change.

It seems to me that whether or not this change succeeds will hinge primarily on the status of map development for PR 0.9. As we have seen over the first couple of days of testing, there are some maps where losing RP's has either a positive or neutral effect, and other maps where it seriously alters the balance of the teams. Most notably, several insurgency maps have become much more difficult for the BluFor. While some maps like Basra and Ramiel remain fairly balanced, others like Korengal and Archer are not. These maps are very much dependent on squads of infantry being able to fight independently of one another and far away from support.

In Korengal in particular, there is the fact that that there are simply very few places to put an FOB in the field. In Operation Archer, there are plenty of locations for FOB's, but the map is so large it doesn't matter. Also, with the insurgents still able to spawn on their own caches, at mapper placed spawns, and at their own FOB's, it is often the case that BluFor will have to fight through the same players multiple times before they can even get within range of their target caches, whereas they themselves only need to be killed once to stop the attack.

I'm not yet convinced that removing RP's will be a step in the right direction for PR... However neither have I decided that RP's are a feature I simply can't live without. The experiment continues...

[davemccr]

I really like what CSX says below, some parts removed, my thought below, I hope to be back on soon Miss you all...

My take:

PR is still trying to make things more realistic. When soldiers are deployed, they spawn at bases, and FOB's are outpost like bases which makes its an appropriate spawn instead of a rally. Definition of rally is that people group up at it, not a spawning device like many have said.

However, this brings me back to my asset whoring post I keep making and we are all tired of, don't worry im not supporting it. ~ like many have said, alot of times we don't have skilled pilots, Logi squads, etc. If noobs screw up all the choppers on Barricuda, the US would automaticly lose because they can't build FOB's which in terms means no spawning.

Now heres on thing i thought about, rallies are balance factors. It is the upper hand that attackers have, If you are going to defend, most likely you will be dug in with FOB and defenses. You can't have FOB's supporting an attack.

Getting rid of rallies would basically be an - over-extreme thing to do for a game like PR. If you think about it, it only works for a few of us, the well coordinated people at TG. Because we know that we can expect bullseye to run logi, and have celestrial fly, followed by mix command, and have people like us lead squads. With something like that, it will work, but when one piece is missing, the game would suck.

And I also notice that it's squads that stick together and work together that usually make use for their rallies. Its usually the ones that rambo and split up in which rallies don't help.

SO WHATS MY CONCLUSION... RALLIES MAKE PR A GAME AND HENCE ARE NECESSARY, HOWEVER WE NEED TO MAKE SOME CHANGES TO THAT SYSTEM

I've been away for a while, waiting for my computer to come... hopefully, I'll be back soon. But have some views on RP's as someone who Squad Leads infantry squads exclusively.

When my squad establishes a rally point very rarely is it within 200 meters of any enemy flag that we are going to assault. And often it is far from a firebase held by "my" team I see one of the main objectives of squads I lead as creating pressure on the other team, or at least the perception of pressure. This allows my team to have some breathing room, it causes the other team to call for reinforcements to old off the attack.

Perhaps there should be a limit on the proximity of RP's in relation to Flags/Cap Radii. It takes a lot of teamwork to get a rally into a secure position, and often, it would be impossible to place a FOB where I put rallies (Logistically). My squad's rally points probably only move 3 - 5 times a game, and are almost never overrun.

Being an Infantry squad, it is extremely frustrating not having good/reliable (I hate sitting in tin cans where it isn't my fault if my squad gets wiped out) transport to locations that need to be (surveyed, defended, established or attacked) so often it is most logical to go by foot, as an infantry man, the only "asset" "WE" have is us, so taking our sole spawn point away seems a little extreme.

Catch you all soon hopefully, damn apple
Davemccr

PS.
What about making assets like APC's spawnable again? Then, if they are lost it is an even bigger problem... oh and FOB's need to be settable closer together. 200m would probably be good...

[mat552]

I like the idea of being able to "Bunker Down" an APC, give up its mobility for the ability to become an immobile troop spawn. Preferably a transition that takes 30-45 seconds to do. Perhaps the turret remains active, perhaps it doesn't.

Still not entirely sure about the rallies yet though.

[Bullseye2550]

you have to use the fb like you putted your rp, clear area, move your fb a bit more to the line of fire, clear the area, ....
now not as squad, now as team, with defence on a fb.
I think you did the same thing with your rp, if enemies come you try to cover your rp.

at least we are playing C&C (command and control)

the only thing i would change: the fb overrun system, change it that you have to knife the fb or inci or hat, whatever, but not just 2 random players walking into the area.

on korengal the idea with the airdrop of the crate (like in vanilla) was not that bad i think, every 10 or 15 min.

[Startrekern]

Al Kufrah Oilfields, Ejod City, Seven Gates, Bi Ming, Sunset City, Road to Kiyognan'Ni, and something else I forget are being removed. Maybe Tad Sae..

[DaViking]

no more Bi Ming? NOOOOOOO!

So far i think that no RPs seems to work okay for AAS but not for insurgency.

Crate drop might work for insurgency. However, I found that we had to put more effort into just defending the FB we had then actually trying to find caches. On korengal, once the initial FBs went down we were unable to get any trucks out of main to make new ones so it became a huge baserape event. For AAS, no RPs really exaggerates the difference between an organized team and an unorganized team.

[aus-trooper]

Hi all,

Not to be a wet towel, but i cant say i am enjoying the no rp's, for me its so bad that it may be the end of PR for me. I always thought and liked the idea that rp's gave the impression that their were more than 32 troopers shooting it out, now its obovious that their are only 32. I dont know about you guys, i really like and enjoy strategy but I also want a fairly fast paced game with intense moments not one in every 30 mins. One of my mates said he stoped playing pr for this reason "their are great moments in PR, but i had to wait a long time to seem them" Im concerned that his comments are even more real. I agree that on Skirmish maps u dont need rp's.

My question is, for me PR was pretty much perfect, why is their such a dramatic change to the game play, were people unhappy with the gameplay as it was???????

Anywayd my 2 cents.

Cheers

[fuzzhead]

Simple answer aus: yea, prety much.

Also, your post is contradictory, you say the fighting around fob is so intense you don't have time to look for caches, then you say the games not fast paced enough? What's wrong with going defense,

personally I find current gameplay too fast paced with players having an arcade/tard rush attitude most of the time... I will be playing this weekend and give my thoughts on new gameplay afterwards, but if all the complaints about game pace being slow are true, I'm expecting a really good gaming session

[Startrekern]

From my experiences on the TG server, here is what I have to say on the new system:

Yes, remove rallies.

Rework firebases as follows to make them more adaptable:

Choice of FIREBASE or BUNKER deployable again.

Bunker:
Requires 3-4 crates
Can have much more wire than current and an extra HMG
Cannot be overrun by conventional means (must be destroyed/incindiary'd/knifed)
Can construct TWO total

Firebase:
Requires 1 crate to construct
- 2 crates for assets
Can be overrun as current
Half as much wire as current FOBs and no AA deployable.
(One HMG?)
Can construct FOUR total

Thus, four FOBs and two Bunkers.

(While we're on the subject of reworking firebases, how about giving us the choice between setting down the new tank-trap wire and the old simple barbwire in the commrose? I.E. left/rightclick for different types..)



Also, Korrengal Valley is hell now. A road moving south out of Camp Murphy would be good, although I'm aware of the new .9 changes to Korrengal, though such a road may still be necessary.

Other maps are not difficult and in fact very enjoyable. I've seen far more squad cohesion and rounds without commanders appear to be much rarer now. There's also much more of a challenge in doing things and death is definitely something that is feared.

Good change, but FOBs definitely need reworking.

[AlmightyLion]

The way is shut.
It was made by those who are dead, and the Dead keep it.

that really made me laugh, but you forgot to add "the way is shut" in the end aswell.

[STealthBanana]

how to play without rally points on jabal
round ended with MEC capping east beach.

[Sabre_Tooth_Tigger]

personally I find current gameplay too fast paced with players having an arcade/tard rush attitude most of the time... I will be playing this weekend and give my thoughts on new gameplay afterwards, but if all the complaints about game pace being slow are true, I'm expecting a really good gaming session

People generally dont expect to wait round in PR and its a major cause of ticket loss I see often because the game already benefits only entering a fight with some intel first.

Last night I suggested we just defend outpost till having location of both caches but this was seen as doing nothing, so people left to walk to the far of the map.
I dont think the pace will change much but maybe the benefits of not running into a stream of bullets will become more obvious.

I usually wander off to flank as it can be highly effective but instead I was following the medic like a puppy dog in the hope of avoiding a long walk all the way across the map. Unfortunately we all died in a cliff top ambush but it'll change behaviour I think hence people dont like it !



Is it possible to test reimplementing dropping a cache box from a parachute on a 30 minute timer maybe or would that take more then a server side change. I think I understand a little bit better now why the British army complain of not having enough air support to avoid walking or driving through hostile areas



- Thats amazing Stealth